The Biggest Mistakes Contractors Make with Greg Spaun

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Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh, hey.

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Speaker 3
Welcome to Blue Collar Start Up, the podcast where hard work meets big ideas. This is your home for real? Talk, real stories and real strategies from the front lines of life in the business of the trades. I’m one of your hosts, Mike Nelson from Five Towers Media.

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Speaker 4
And I’m your co-host, Derek Foster. Bagel cleaning.

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Speaker 2
Systems. Yeah, you’re.

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Speaker 3
Like my favorite thing to say. Whatever you say that I know.

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Speaker 2
It’s funny. It.

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Speaker 3
Just makes me laugh it real. Yeah.

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Speaker 4
Well, it’s good. It’s good to see that you’re up and around.

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Speaker 3
Oh, I know, I know, Greg and I were actually, we’re talking about before we started the show, man, that was. I mean, all told, Derek, that was like ten days of just feeling like absolute garbage. And 4 or 5 of those days, I was down, like, down for the count. And that’s, the sickest I’ve been, I want to say, since, like, I had Covid back in 2020.

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Speaker 3
I mean, it was it was pretty bad.

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Speaker 4
Yeah. It’s almost just as difficult mentally when you’re when you’re down and out like that to, be able to manage the sickness and then try to keep up with what, what’s going on. And that’s not easy. So.

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Speaker 2
No.

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Speaker 3
Yeah. I’ve been we’re doing a lot of extra work all week trying to get caught back up and get some, get the things I wasn’t able to get to there last week and it’s yeah, getting getting sick as a business owner sucks. I it sucks at any room. Any doubt business owner man that stuff just doesn’t go away.

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Speaker 4
No it does not.

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Speaker 2
Is not.

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Speaker 3
Go away. So,

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Speaker 3
Where are we at? I’m a little rusty. I took one week off, and I don’t know what I’m doing next.

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Speaker 2
So we’re,

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Speaker 4
We’re back here, and, and our ask the expert, segment of the show.

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Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah.

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Speaker 4
So I think, you know, we probably should touch on some of the new segments that we have, Mike, and roll through that. Just so any new listeners know?

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Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3
I was actually I was really sad to miss. So we had, our Catamount roundtable, which is one of the new formats that we’re doing last week. You got to sit down with, Stacy and Scott, and I think Jason was with you guys, too, right?

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Speaker 2
Yeah. John, too. Yeah.

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Speaker 3
I’m looking forward to listening to that episode on, personal and professional development. We’ve also got our, let’s ask Bill episodes, the lab lab. And I think we’ve got another one of those coming up next week or the week after. Yeah. And, let’s see, later on this month, we’ve got one of our new segments, women in the trades, with Stacy Spector of Catamount Consulting as a guest host.

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Speaker 3
Very excited about that. And then, of course, the as the experts, like we’re doing today with Greg and then interviews from the field where we’re talking with, the blue collar business owners and, trades workers that are out there and kind of hearing about what they’re doing and, getting this straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, so excited about all these new formats, and seeing where they can take the show to also, of course, don’t forget everybody.

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Speaker 3
We’ve got our Patreon side of the business here, the business of the podcast, for if you don’t know what that is, Patreon is a membership portal that you can utilize. And so we’ve set up an account. We’re adding very specific content. There’s actually a section of each episode that we’re putting in there that is not available to just the general public.

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Speaker 3
So if you’re looking for some more content from us, that is the place to go. The a lot of the stuff that we’re doing on the Patreon side of things is trying to be really actionable for business owners, trying to get them more insight as far as structuring their business, growing their business, sales, marketing, and or like today, with Greg talking about the the legal side of how to protect your business and what to do when situations arise.

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Speaker 3
So really excited about the stuff that we’re putting out on Patreon. So please, you know, join. It’s a whopping $5 a month. Not not big money. Well worth the content that we’re giving you guys in there. So help support the show. Speaking of supporting the show, of course, sponsorship opportunities are available. If you don’t know, you know, we bring on a few sponsors every year.

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Speaker 3
The money is used, partly to offset the cost of the show, but also to, support tools and tuition for kids that are coming through trade school. Whether, you know, it’s both these programs, HVC, that we affectionately call the blue collar college because of all the amazing trades programs they have down there. So, you know, we’ve got a lot of, sponsorship opportunities available.

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Speaker 3
Please reach out to us if you’re interested and you want to, see your name in lights, so to speak. And the blue collar architecture that we’ve got built out here, some of our current sponsors, we’ve got, the folks over at People, Liz Martin electric, MLB construction, but Nat Geo Construction, Michaels Group, Catamount Consulting, of course, Pam and Doug over at the, Northeast Construction Trades Workforce Coalition doing amazing work.

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Speaker 3
And of course, Derek’s team over at Diego Cleaning Systems. Our team over at Five Towers Media without those people, we wouldn’t be able to do a lot of the great things that we’ve been doing, whether it’s making business connections, helping out kids in the trades, and really just trying to get more word out there about how important the trades are to, to this country and everything that goes on on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 3
So thanks to everybody for your support. And let’s get to our guest, Greg Spot. Greg, how are we doing, man?

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Speaker 1
Doing well. How about you? I I’m glad you’re on the man. Glad you’re feeling better. And yeah, there’s nothing worse than, you know, if you have business stresses because the, the emails are coming in and, you know, at a certain point you’ve got to disconnect for your mental and physical health, even though, you know what kind of an avalanche you’re going to come back into once you start reviewing those emails.

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Speaker 1
But you got to go.

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Speaker 3
You know, it’s wild about being that sick, is it’s actually when I’m that sick, it’s actually the only time that I just don’t care. Like, you know, you’re so sick, you can’t eat. Like, the stress of day to day operations melts away because you feel so awful physically with whatever you’re fighting at that point in time. So I’m just like, the house could be burning down right now, and I don’t even care if it’ll make my head stop hurting or it’ll bring my my, my flu temperature down.

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Speaker 3
That’d be great, you know? But.

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Speaker 2
Terrible.

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Speaker 4
I always get a greater appreciation for, for being healthy after going through that. Stop taking it for for granted, you know? So.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, man, it’s not easy. Not easy.

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Speaker 3
It’s not easy. Heavy as the head as they say. So, Greg, why don’t we start off just kind of, tell the audience a little bit about yourself. A little bit about your firm, what you do, who you are, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1
Okay. My name is Gregory Spawn. I’m with the law firm of Welby, Brady and green lit. We’re construction lawyers, is what we are. You know, my firm does not have, a family law guy down the hall. There’s no criminal practitioner here. You know, we don’t have, you know, somebody who focuses in, you know, intellectual property or anything like that.

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Speaker 1
It’s all focused around construction and related areas. Again, you know, commercial and and real estate as well. But they’re all an outgrowth out of, at a construction firm started, you know, over 30 years ago when, Tom Welby and Jerry Brady, both who were professional engineers by training, decided to go to law school. They met up and decided, hey, you know, let’s, we can make a niche, niche business, by, by doing construction law.

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Speaker 1
And, you know, it was right around that time when, you know, real specializations, the old, hanging out of general practitioners shingle, you know, it.

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Speaker 2
Was up.

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Speaker 1
On the on the down, was waning. And, you know, you started to see more, more niche practitioners, this way, you know, I say, you know, the, I’m barred by rules of, professional responsibility from using the term specialist. But I say that we concentrate our practice in construction and we’re really good at it. So, you know, that’s what we do.

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Speaker 1
We we help, you know, anybody dealing with the, dealing with construction except the guy falling off the scaffold, we leave those to the personal injury practitioners. And we’ll represent typically, if it’s that context, it’s an insurance dispute, and we’ll represent somebody in defending that lawsuit in the meantime. But by and large, it’s a lot of helping people find their wallet to speak in the vernacular.

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Speaker 1
You know, people not paying to late delay the pay, something going wrong on a job. Somebody’s out of pocket. And, you know, we help, contractors navigate that mess.

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Speaker 3
It’s surprising how much that actually goes on. Right? Like the no pay lay pay stuff is just wild in the business community.

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Speaker 2
I yeah.

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Speaker 1
You know, some people, they, they get in a little above their heads and, you know, next thing you know, you know, the job that they bid out, you know, they missed a couple of things in the plans. And next thing you know, it’s on them. They’re having to come out of pocket. Maybe their lines of credit are a little extended or, you know, some people just use it as a, you know, some kind of an impromptu, loan.

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Speaker 1
Hey, look, you know, if I push out the payment terms from 30 days to 60 days, hey, now I’ve got another month afloat to be able to operate my business, knowing that, you know, they’ll eventually flow money down. But now. Now you have to have a fight over it.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, it’s.

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Speaker 3
And I know we’re going to get into it here a little later on the show as far as like protecting yourself and contracts and how the work upfront really kind of saves you time in the end, I guess is the way to say it.

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Speaker 2
But I’m curious, how.

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Speaker 3
How did you get into the construction side of things? You personally.

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Speaker 2
Well.

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Speaker 1
I’ve been practicing construction law for 17 years. I’ve been admitted to practice, for 25 years. Brooklyn Law School, class of 2000, class of zero. Make that what you will. But, yeah, I did my first couple of years, working in the court system as, for the Appellate Division, Second Department in Brooklyn, and then got into general practice and then.

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Speaker 1
Right, ironically enough, in 2009, as the economy was really starting to go, downhill, I was working at a firm where they had political connections, and those political connections didn’t look very well, which ultimately panned out the, the, the, the partners, so-called rabbi at that firm, was about to lose an election, and he did, so I, I spotted an ad in the law journal at the appropriate time.

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Speaker 1
Sent my resumé over. I was a ninth year associate at the time. They although they were looking, for a second, a third and a fifth sixth. So they didn’t bring in those to the type of associates. And then they made room for a, a senior associate. Me and I’ve been here ever since.

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Speaker 2
Very nice.

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Speaker 3
It’s, it’s staggering how what’s the word? I, I don’t want to say complicated, although I’m sure it is, but, like the amount of different types of things you have to worry about in the trades, legal, legally speaking, just seems to be staggering to me. What? When you’re working with your clients and. Well, actually, we should ask you that, right?

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Speaker 3
Like, what are the some of the kinds of clients that you’re working with? Let’s do that first.

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Speaker 1
Well, typically, you know, as it just happens to shake out, there are firms, you know, we’re what’s called the boutique firm. We concentrate our practice in one area. But because of that, you know, as it turns out, there are firms that typically represent more general contractors than not. I’m not saying a firm like that won’t represent itself.

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Speaker 1
But, you know, under you have to consider that there are conflicts of interest. If you’re representing a general contractor, you can’t represent that against a subcontractor on the job who’s also your client. So if you’re representing a general contractor who routinely has a cadre of 30 or 40 or 50 subs, you know, those are potential clients you can’t touch, because more often than not, they’ll have claims against your client.

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Speaker 1
And and you’re barred from from taking those, those contractors. So our firm happens to have, you know, our bread and butter are, you know, small to mid tier subcontractors. We have some larger subcontractors and some general contractors on our client role is is as well. But overhead for subcontractors is some variety. The remainder are general contractors, owners architects, engineers, design professionals, insurance companies and charities.

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Speaker 1
But again just in order to minimize the amount of conflicts and I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I mean, it happens pretty frequently when you practice in one area, but, you know, by not representing multiple, not concentrating on multiple tiers, you know, that that enables us to, you know, avoid those kind of conflicts because after a while, you know, a client will understand every once in a while.

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Speaker 1
Hey, you know, you also represent the guy I want to sue. So you got to back out of both. You can’t. Oh, he’s the older client. I’m going to represent him or her. Now. You got to play Switzerland and be neutral. The most you can do is give each of them numbers to attorneys that, you know, you hope will poach the client for themselves down the line.

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Speaker 1
Not that that doesn’t happen. But again, you know, a small practice area, what goes around, comes around. So, you know, you try to avoid that and you stay in your areas. And again, our most of our clients are subcontractors, but we have experience up and down the food chain.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
When you say, small to midsize tier clients, what does that equate to? Like revenue wise I guess is probably typically how they look at that. Right.

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Speaker 1
Yes and no. I mean, more it’s more, you know, the types of jobs. I mean, you know, that there are there’s large revenue subcontractors that, you know, take hundreds of small jobs versus, you know, smaller subcontractors who take, you know, have 4 or 5 large jobs going at once. So you would think it would be split up by revenue.

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Speaker 1
But it, it, it really does. And it’s, it’s more job value in some jobs. You know, I’ve represented, you know, people on, you know, contractors on jobs, you know, eight, nine figures. You know, again, again, we’re not dealing with, you know, the big name international, contractors again. They’ve got their own niche. Most of those have in-house counsel, if not outright law departments in-house.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. But yeah, I mean, occasionally we will be local council to organizations like that. I’ve got one of those going right now. There are national, they have a case that, where the venue is in New York, even though the jobs out in the, the southeast. So, you know, again, we go where, where our clients go and they come to us when they need to.

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Speaker 3
It’s really kind of fascinating to think about the need for professional legal help inside the trades. You know, given that like, like you were saying, like, with the larger guys, they might have in-house counsel, which means there’s things happening all the time where they need to have lawyers available. Right. And but even if you don’t have in-house counsel, even smaller companies, still, there’s still just such, demand for it all the time.

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Speaker 3
And I always, you know, for especially for the younger businesses, which is always like the, sweet spot for me when I’m talking about people, because that’s who I am, a small business owner. I always just think about, like, man, I, I couldn’t imagine there’s probably so many things I’m not even aware of that I need legal eyeballs on or discussions being had.

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Speaker 3
And I’m not having those discussions because I’m just ignorant of it all together. And that was one of the hopes. And bringing you on today was to talk about some of those things to help identify the, small, mid-sized businesses. Like, chances are, if you’re not talking to a lawyer pretty regularly, you might want to.

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Speaker 2
Use the data dealer.

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Speaker 1
Over. Yeah. You know, and again, you know, we there was something to that where, you know, person’s handshake was their word was their bond. And ultimately, if there was a dispute, you know, people could just settle it in a back room and figure out, you know, who’s going to you know, who’s going to take the brunt of it?

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Speaker 1
Are they going to split the headache, and split the pain, you know, now, as people have as trust has waned, you know, people say, oh, the lawyers, screwed things up, you know, and I don’t think that that’s the case. I think that, you know, we’re more the symptom of the issue of the larger issue, which is a, you know, that the level of trust in people is going down.

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Speaker 1
So as a fallback, okay, I want my paperwork and my documentation in order this way, while I hope to resolve it early, if there’s a problem or I hope to prevent it in the first place, which is ideal. If you have to go to war, you’re prepared.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, and this kind of goes back to what we were talking about before we started the show, right? Where making sure that you understand everything that’s in your contract and not necessarily like, like Derek was saying, like, not necessarily just signing a boilerplate contract because you want the deal. Like, there’s things in there that you need to take a look at and you possibly need to say no to.

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Speaker 3
Can you, can you kind of speak on that a little bit more?

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Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I had a case involving a, a client, a big, you know, I have multiple law. My firm has multiple offices, in, in New York, we have a downstate office in White Plains and a capital Region office in Albany. I, I asked for me. I split my time between the two. This was a case out of my White Plains office where, you know, a large downstate electrical contractor, you know, works Long Island, New York City, you know, and the lower, Hudson Valley, you know, he he’s been in the business a while.

00;18;19;04 – 00;18;43;10
Speaker 1
You know, he’s one of the last people who can tell me that he was still he was doing this while I was still in diapers. He signed a contract, ostensibly in AA form, but it was heavily modified. And, you know, the good thing about if you’re using a legitimate air form is it marks changes in the document with a line on the left side of the paper, and there were pages and pages where this line was.

00;18;43;12 – 00;19;11;13
Speaker 1
And basically the general contractor inserted what’s called a turnkey provision that provided, okay, here are the plans. These plans include not only what’s depicted here, but anything envisioned by the design intent required by codes or required to make this this was a, an assisted living facility to make it functional as as the project as envisioned. So now my electrical contractor has to, you know, look into the crystal ball.

00;19;11;13 – 00;19;37;20
Speaker 1
Okay. What was envisioned. It’s not on the plans. And, you know, he tweaked the payment terms, he tweaked some of the insurance, so that he could, you know, you know, use his current policy and not have to procure others, other terms he didn’t even look at. And ultimately, he had about $800,000 in change orders. And there were change orders that were being paid on the job by one project manager.

00;19;37;22 – 00;19;58;12
Speaker 1
He leaves and new PM comes in and says, hey, there’s a turnkey provision change order. What’s that? No such animal. And denied everything. And based on the contract language, it was, you know, my client was pretty stuck. But that being said, I was able to craft an argument because there were there were change orders that were paid.

00;19;58;14 – 00;20;28;09
Speaker 1
Hey, of course the conduct there were change orders on this job. My client had a reasonable right to expect payment of change orders. And we settled literally the day before jury selection for about two thirds of what my client was owed. You know, after that and after the legal fees incurred in getting that far, you know, simply by taking the turnkey provision out or negotiating it to something much more favorable would have, you know, resolve the problem in the first place.

00;20;28;12 – 00;20;29;27
Speaker 2
So it.

00;20;29;29 – 00;20;38;19
Speaker 3
Sounds like a lot of time, money and resources could have been saved had there been some representation on the front end.

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Speaker 2
That.

00;20;39;25 – 00;20;55;22
Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, I’m look, I’m Gen-X, you know, I, I grew up with, Bugs Bunny and Woody Woodpecker news, his famous Woody Woodpecker episode where you know, what he’s going through and, you know, dealing with problem after problem. And then there’s, a character, you know, if. What, are you going straight to the police?

00;20;55;22 – 00;21;11;06
Speaker 1
None of this would have ever happened. And by the end of the cartoon, Woody turns around, slaps him in the face and shut up. But at the end of the day, hey, if what did goes straight to the police, none of this would have ever happened. Same thing if you reviewed your contract in the first place. None of this would have ever happened.

00;21;11;09 – 00;21;21;18
Speaker 3
Is that a lot of the kind of work that you guys are doing is is specifically on the contract side of things to make sure that the eyes are dotting the t’s across and your clients are protected.

00;21;21;20 – 00;21;43;11
Speaker 1
No, most of my practice is litigation. It’s when everything is going sideways and, you know, the train’s off the rails. You know, there’s a smoldering, fire down the track. You know that that’s usually when we get brought in. So, you know, that being said, I try to be proactive. Look, my elevator pitch is it’s easier for me and cheaper for you.

00;21;43;12 – 00;22;01;19
Speaker 1
For me to keep you out of trouble than to go getting you out of trouble. But that being said, you know, contractors, God bless them. They’re an optimistic bunch. They you know, nothing’s going to go wrong. I know the guy. I know the job. I know what I’m doing. So they’ll they’re not they’re not as confrontational. But that’s probably a wrong word.

00;22;01;26 – 00;22;28;12
Speaker 1
But they don’t push as much as they should in a negotiation phase. Yeah. And that, that that’s a big problem. So as a result, you know, as much as we try to get contracts in on the front end and contract review and I’ve got some clients that are great, they’ll send me a contract for a small job and look, you know, nobody wants to spend, the 1000 or 2000 or however many thousands of dollars reviewing the contract on a small job.

00;22;28;12 – 00;22;55;21
Speaker 1
But you know, that small job, if somebody gets hurt and you don’t have the proper insurance and indemnification provisions, you know, now, you could be looking at a 6 or 7 figure claim on a five figure job. And, you know, you need the contract and you need to make sure everything’s in place so your insurance carrier can’t get cut later on at this claim, because your contract didn’t contain all the necessary requirements to flow down the liabilities and the risks.

00;22;55;23 – 00;22;56;19
Speaker 2
Do you see those kinds.

00;22;56;19 – 00;23;11;20
Speaker 3
Of issues more with like larger jobs than, say, like a $400,000 home build versus like a, you know, a $15 million commercial property? Or is that do you do you see these same kind of issues on all sorts of all sides jobs?

00;23;11;22 – 00;23;34;15
Speaker 1
I see the issue on all sides jobs, because every general contractor has their own form. And, you know, at the end of the day, there’s only so much that they’re going to tolerate, you know, it’s like an old Gen-X cartoon Popeye. I bet all I can stands and I can’t stand it no more. You know, you mark up a general contract to the point where it looks, you know, all the the red lines look like somebody bled all over the paper.

00;23;34;18 – 00;23;51;12
Speaker 1
The general contractor is going to take a pass on the job. You know, my job isn’t to convince my client how bad the contract is, and they shouldn’t take the job. You know, they’re in the business to take risk. Risk is is a lot of people’s business. My job is to make sure my client knows the amount of risk they can take.

00;23;51;15 – 00;24;13;20
Speaker 1
And, you know, they have an idea. Okay, I’m facing these risks with these provisions in I want to negotiate these more onerous provisions out. And if I can’t get it done, I can’t get it done. But on the other hand, I’m willing to fork to go forward with a certain amount of risk. It’s my job to make sure my client knows what those levels of risk are.

00;24;13;22 – 00;24;15;19
Speaker 3
That’s interesting. I hadn’t actually thought about it.

00;24;15;21 – 00;24;44;06
Speaker 4
Is there a certain way, Greg? Because that’s an interesting and me being in that position, you want to win the work and win the job, and then at the same time you’re having the conversation with potential customer about, okay, well, you know, we want the job, but here’s X, Y, and Z. Is there a particular way that a business owner can approach that conversation and that negotiation period, that puts them in a position to negotiate it in a manner that’s not going to lose them?

00;24;44;06 – 00;24;45;05
Speaker 4
The project?

00;24;45;08 – 00;25;07;16
Speaker 1
Well, you know, at the risk of the shameless plug, which is why I’m here, you know, have your lawyer, you know, highlight which, you know, set up a contract for negotiation with bargaining chips. You know, a lot of times the contracts will include provisions that won’t pass legal muster. I love seeing those. And I’ll tell my client, hey, you want to strike this pay off pain clause?

00;25;07;19 – 00;25;24;23
Speaker 1
Pay, if paid, is clauses have been illegal in a state for 30 years, thanks to my partner, Mike Greenblatt, who argued that case before the Court of Appeals. But they’re still in contracts. Okay, you want to strike it, but you want to negotiate this back in in exchange for something you really want? Because the court will never enforce that.

00;25;24;27 – 00;25;44;00
Speaker 1
And you’re giving somebody ice in the winter. You want to know where you’re bargaining chips are and where your lines of retreat are. You know, I’ll mark up a contract, you know, and say, look, you know, there are certain things you cannot bargain on. Either this goes or my recommendation. And it’s just that a recommendation to not take the job.

00;25;44;02 – 00;26;20;23
Speaker 1
You know, some, some clients say, you know, I do what my lawyer tells me. It’s not my business to run. It’s your business to run. It’s, you know, I’m the it’s my job to be your tool, not vice versa. I suggest what you might or might not want to do, but ultimately, it’s a business decision. I’m just informing that from a legal perspective as to, you know what, how you want to best preserve your business rights in a legal context in order to make sure, at the end of the day, that you have something to negotiate in, something to, to actually wheel and deal with.

00;26;20;25 – 00;26;23;24
Speaker 4
You elaborate on that pay us paid clause.

00;26;23;26 – 00;26;52;18
Speaker 1
The the pay if paid clause is something that’s And people confuse these. There are two versions. There’s pay if paid which says subcontractor. I don’t have the obligation to pay you unless I get paid from the owner. And if I never get paid from the owner, I don’t ever have to pay you. Those are illegal pay when paid, says, hey, subcontractor, I will pay you when I get paid from the owner or within a reasonable time.

00;26;52;18 – 00;27;08;15
Speaker 1
If the owner is not paying, that’s merely a timing mechanism. The question of what’s reasonable delay, you know, that can be argued back and forth, but ultimately you still maintain your right to payment, even if the owner never pays. The GC.

00;27;08;17 – 00;27;12;13
Speaker 3
Interesting. I didn’t even know either one of those things.

00;27;12;13 – 00;27;14;11
Speaker 2
Work is worth it.

00;27;14;13 – 00;27;17;27
Speaker 3
I pay it paid is actually still legal in other states.

00;27;17;27 – 00;27;21;27
Speaker 2
It’s just not legal in New York state.

00;27;22;00 – 00;27;23;26
Speaker 3
Or illegal all over the you.

00;27;23;29 – 00;27;44;14
Speaker 1
Know, there’s a variety as to, where it’s legal and where it’s not. For instance, in Connecticut, it’s legal. New Jersey, in theory, it’s legal. But, you know, as the courts interpret the clause, you have to be very specific as to the language. And as a practical matter, the new Jersey courts haven’t seen language they’ve bless yet.

00;27;44;17 – 00;27;51;14
Speaker 1
But in New York, illegal.

00;27;51;16 – 00;27;55;29
Speaker 2
Okay. Okay. So, that was getting a little.

00;27;56;01 – 00;27;57;08
Speaker 3
A little shabby there for a minute.

00;27;57;12 – 00;28;01;12
Speaker 1
Oh, okay. Yeah. You say I saw a little bit of a glitching problem.

00;28;01;15 – 00;28;04;06
Speaker 4
Yeah. And the reason I ask that, Greg, is we see that and.

00;28;04;08 – 00;28;08;08
Speaker 2
I don’t know.

00;28;08;10 – 00;28;11;15
Speaker 1
See, see? Pay off paid clauses. Derek.

00;28;11;17 – 00;28;17;21
Speaker 4
Occasionally, you know, there’s some, some version of that. And, it was just interesting that you brought that up because it’s,

00;28;17;23 – 00;28;18;20
Speaker 2
You know.

00;28;18;23 – 00;28;38;28
Speaker 1
Typically a New York based contractor, you know, some of them still do, have those clauses in their contract, and that’s because, you know, GC your subcontractor, I want you to know where you stand. Okay? You know, again, if I’m representing a subcontractor, I’m happy to see that clause because, you know, the GC just cut their legs out from under them.

00;28;39;01 – 00;29;02;19
Speaker 1
What you see more is when you’re building, you know, national chain stores, and of course, you know, national customer comes in, you know, for example, at target, they’ve got their cadre of contractors and subcontractors they use, but sometimes particularly more for licensed trades. They have to do they have to dive into the local labor pool and they’ll they’ll retain some local subcontractors.

00;29;02;21 – 00;29;19;22
Speaker 1
And these contracts contain, oh, you won’t file a mechanics lien on the job. Yeah. No good in New York. Oh, if you’re going to sue me, you’re going to be suing me in Louisiana. No good in New York. If you’re going to be suing me, it’s going to be determinable under Louisiana law. No good in New York. Oh, pay if paid, no good in New York.

00;29;19;22 – 00;29;41;28
Speaker 1
There’s a there’s a whole host of them that you’ll see in these contracts. And again, I’ll, I’ll give my client, an email. It says this email is attorney client privilege for your eyes only because this is negotiation strategy. And if you just forward it, you just dropped your pants. That being said, the attached contract with the markups send over.

00;29;42;01 – 00;29;49;15
Speaker 1
And basically one is the index to the other.

00;29;49;17 – 00;29;55;26
Speaker 2
So with these laws, I’m sure how do business owners know?

00;29;55;28 – 00;30;01;10
Speaker 4
Sorry, Mike, I don’t know if you cut out. Go ahead. The. No. I was going to say with with all.

00;30;01;11 – 00;30;04;20
Speaker 2
No, no no, I stop, you know.

00;30;04;22 – 00;30;12;18
Speaker 4
With all these clauses and whatnot that, you know, are illegal and they’re, they’re I would imagine they change from time to time or some get added.

00;30;12;21 – 00;30;13;10
Speaker 2
How do you.

00;30;13;16 – 00;30;17;08
Speaker 4
How can a business owner keep up with those simply.

00;30;17;11 – 00;30;37;28
Speaker 1
It’s not easy. You know, every December, you know, I get a pit in my stomach. It’s like, okay, what’s what? What’s the legislature going to. I have an idea of what the legislature has done, but what’s the governor going to sign and what’s the governor going to not sign? That will further impact the business community generally. And, you know, the construction industry in particular?

00;30;38;00 – 00;31;04;25
Speaker 1
You know, and unfortunately for the industry, she was a little busy this year. There are new, prevailing wage requirements on off site fabrication that’s going to be, you know, quite a, quite a conundrum for contractors to comply with. I mean, for instance, if you’re familiar with the term prevailing wage, you know that it requires certain, wages paid on certain jobs, you know, which is hard enough, sometimes to compute in US dollars.

00;31;04;27 – 00;31;28;09
Speaker 1
But how do you compute it in yen if you’re buying Mitsubishi equipment that’s manufactured for a, a job in upstate New York or, you know, or rupees or we can’t trade with Russia. So rubles are off the table, but euros or any other, Chinese one, you know, how do you compute prevailing wage there? Or, you know, you have a fabrication shop, use a fabricator in Pennsylvania?

00;31;28;11 – 00;32;00;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. They get a lot of business from New York. But now do they want the headaches of, you know, being a New York prevailing wage contractor? And the answer’s going to be likely. Not so. Yeah, it’s very hard. And for those, I would suggest joining industry associations. You have national associations like Associated General Contractors. You have, you know, ABC, Associated Builders and contractors, you have, you know, American Subcontractors Association.

00;32;00;22 – 00;32;28;11
Speaker 1
You also have local chapters, AGC of New York, you know, Northeastern subcontractors, New York City subcontractors, trade association. You have these associations who, you know, basically, that’s one of the benefits of membership. And, you know, some associations are better than others, but they do communicate to their members as to, you know, what’s new, what you should look out for, and how we as an industry can tackle these issues.

00;32;28;13 – 00;32;30;00
Speaker 3
It’s so staggering. There’s just so.

00;32;30;00 – 00;32;32;25
Speaker 2
Much it is.

00;32;32;28 – 00;32;57;15
Speaker 1
It’s not easy. But, you know, on the other hand, if you don’t keep up, you know, you’re likely to get, you know, proverbially whacked in the back of the head with a baseball bat out of nowhere because it’ll just sneak up on you and bang, it’ll get you. You know, that’s why I’m all about being proactive. I remember sitting in my, real estate practice class, and, you know, my professor, you know, great guy, Steve Bhatia.

00;32;57;20 – 00;33;15;04
Speaker 1
And he, you know, he told us he’s like, look, you know, you come to me with a problem at the contract stage, I’ll charge you a penny. You come to me at the problem stage, I’ll charge you a dollar. You come to me when it’s time to try the case, I’ll charge you a hundred bucks. And it’s.

00;33;15;07 – 00;33;20;22
Speaker 1
You know, the old ounce of prevention is worth a pound. The cure. Truer words were never spoken.

00;33;20;24 – 00;33;23;20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;33;23;22 – 00;33;37;20
Speaker 3
Greg, I know we gotta, start to transition over to the Patreon side of things, but, you know, for our listeners, if there’s one thing you’re going to tell our listeners about the legal side of the trades, what would it be?

00;33;37;23 – 00;33;58;19
Speaker 1
Just that doing a good job is not enough anymore. I, I’ve had clients over the years, and I still have clients. Hey, if if I put my all into the construction, into the project and I build a good product, then I’m good, then there won’t be any problems. There’ll be no basis for objection. No basis for not paying me.

00;33;58;21 – 00;34;21;18
Speaker 1
And I’ll, I’ll live to build the next project. Unfortunately, that’s not true anymore. There are paperwork breaches that, regardless of how good the job is, you know, will will get you, you know, there there’s a case, you know, goes back to 2013, out of an appellate court in Manhattan where the job was conduct was conducted perfectly.

00;34;21;20 – 00;34;48;17
Speaker 1
You know, no complaints by the owner as to the, this electrician scope of work. Everybody was happy with the work. Didn’t, didn’t file certified payrolls. As required. And ultimately, despite the fact that the owner somehow and it was never explained in the case, release that payment to the GC, the GC says, well, without certified payrolls, I don’t have the obligation to pay you, so I’m not paying you.

00;34;48;19 – 00;34;50;20
Speaker 1
And ultimately, that was the final result.

00;34;50;22 – 00;34;52;13
Speaker 2
Good work, proper work.

00;34;52;13 – 00;35;02;05
Speaker 1
Everybody happy? No bank charges, no payment. Why paperwork? So you’ve got to have that paperwork in order.

00;35;02;08 – 00;35;03;25
Speaker 4
Expensive. Less, more.

00;35;03;27 – 00;35;06;25
Speaker 2
It is. It’s happened to me. Yeah.

00;35;06;27 – 00;35;27;12
Speaker 1
You know and there are ways to cut off the pace. For instance, if, you know, if I have a client who. Okay, I’ve reviewed the contract now, they want me to set up what they what we call a job book. Okay. You know, it has a okay. If there’s a delay, go to D. Okay. Here’s delay. Here are my blank templates as to the notices to send under that contract tailored to that contract.

00;35;27;15 – 00;35;46;14
Speaker 1
And if it’s a municipal owner any municipal requirements as well. As far as how to best protect your rights, how to best give notice and how to best make sure at the end of the day, that you can have the fight to recoup your payment, you know, and a lot of clients tell me, hey, look, you know, I don’t want to be that nuisance.

00;35;46;14 – 00;36;05;20
Speaker 1
I don’t want to be that pain in the ass who’s always papering the job. You know, when I tell them, I’m like, look, you know, remember, Salvatore Tesco in The Godfather, you know, played by the late, great Abe Vigoda, who, you know, believe it or not. And in 1972 was was younger than I am now. But God, he look 30 years older than I am now.

00;36;05;22 – 00;36;26;13
Speaker 1
I guess something about aging in the 70s. But you know, his last line to, to Tom Hagen, who, when he’s like, can you help me? Any in times like, no, Sally, I can’t, you know, like it’s done. And he’s like, well, tell Mickey I always like them. It was just business. That’s the attitude you have to have when you give these notices.

00;36;26;18 – 00;36;41;09
Speaker 1
It’s just business. You can, you know, have a good relate professional relationship with the people. You can be friends with, the people you can go see him at the bar. You can make it at a happy hour at a trade association. But hey, in order to protect your rights, it’s just business. Send the notice.

00;36;41;09 – 00;36;49;20
Speaker 3
Yeah, you really do protect yourself. It’s unfortunate, no doubt. Part of the world we live in.

00;36;49;22 – 00;36;50;29
Speaker 1
Unfortunately.

00;36;51;02 – 00;37;02;00
Speaker 3
Unfortunately, we’re we’re going to jump over to the Patreon side of things, everybody. But, before we do, Greg, you want to just, tell people if they have questions, they want to get connected with you. Maybe they need some help. How do they find you?

00;37;02;03 – 00;37;27;13
Speaker 1
Sure. My my firm as well be Brady and Greenblatt. You know, I joke that every time I give a presentation, a webinar or whatnot comes with my lifetime guarantee. As long as I’m alive. Email me with a question. I’m easy to get. My email is g spawn GSP a u n a w b g llp.com. Or you can just google well we Brady and Greenblatt and we pop right on up.

00;37;27;15 – 00;37;28;26
Speaker 2
Nice.

00;37;28;28 – 00;37;44;22
Speaker 3
Well, I really appreciate you coming on the show. And looking forward to asking you a few more questions here on the Patreon side of things. And of course, everybody, thanks for listening. We really appreciate your support. You know, you can find us. Our website is Blue Collar startup.io. And then of course you can listen to our podcast on Apple and Spotify.

00;37;44;22 – 00;37;54;22
Speaker 3
Or you can watch the video version on YouTube or on Rumble Search. Sound finest. Leave us a review. Hit the like button. Subscribe button. All the things. Thanks, everybody. Appreciate it.

00;37;54;22 – 00;38;22;28
Speaker 1
And that wraps up another episode of Blue Collar Startup. A big thank you to our sponsors, Five Towers Media, Daigle Cleaning Systems, Daigle Fire Solutions, The Michaels Group, Martin Electric, MLB construction, Pinocchio Construction People, and Catamount Consulting for making this podcast possible. And thank you for tuning in. If you learned something or felt inspired. Connect with us on our website at Blue Collar Startup Bio or email us at hardhat Dot CSU at gmail.com.

00;38;22;28 – 00;38;35;07
Speaker 1
We’d love to hear your questions and topic ideas. Help us spread the word by sharing the show and following us on social media for updates. Until next time, keep on building. Keep on dreaming and keep hustling like your future depends on it.

00;38;35;07 – 00;38;50;17
Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh, hey.

00;41;37;02 – 00;41;52;12
Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh, hey.

00;41;52;12 – 00;42;21;25
Speaker 3
Welcome back to the patron side of things everybody. We are still here with Greg Spohn from Welby Brady and Greenblatt. We got a few more questions to ask of course. Greg wondering what kind of legal issues should our listeners be most concerned about keeping an eye out for on the watch for? Maybe they’re ignoring it right now and just kind of getting away and, you know, getting by and and being lucky.

00;42;21;27 – 00;42;25;25
Speaker 3
But luck always runs out. So what kind of things should they be looking out for?

00;42;25;28 – 00;43;05;21
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, right now it’s more on the regulatory side as far as you know, the employer employee as far as, you know, making sure you pay your, your, labor, your, you know what? They’re entitled to, you know, if you’re open shop and you’re working on a private project, you know, whatever you’ve agreed to. And more importantly, because of the wage theft laws, the formerly in New York, they, these wage theft laws were, limited to, you know, public works contracts, essentially prevailing wage, where a general contractor was vicariously liable for his or her subcontractors failure to pay wages.

00;43;05;24 – 00;43;45;01
Speaker 1
Well, a couple of years ago, New York put in a general wage theft statute that applies that to any employer, employee relationship and any subcontractor sub consultant relationship as well. So now if I have a private open shop project not governed by a collective bargaining agreement, not governed by prevailing wage, you know, you still have the obligation to make sure your subcontractors and lower tier subs below that are paying their employees, because if not, you’ll be held liable and, you know, this is one of the larger issues, particularly, you know, one of the one of the pieces of advice I always give my, my clients that your subs that your subs.

00;43;45;01 – 00;44;16;02
Speaker 1
Oh, that I mentioned it that your subs, you know, it’s more it’s about more than just the number on the bid, on the proposal and comparing those side by side. You know, if you’re hygienist hiring a subcontractor who’s got, you know, ten, 15 year old vans with magnets on a side versus an established company, you know, the established company may be a little bit pricier, but on the other hand, you know, if there’s an issue, is that subcontractor signing a document that they have no ability to live up to?

00;44;16;04 – 00;44;36;21
Speaker 1
You hope they finish. And, you know, they may finance the job by not paying their workers, amongst other things. Or if it’s a prevailing wage job, not remitting French’s or if they’re a union contractor, not remitting fringes to a union. And, you know, ultimately you’re going to be left on the hook for it. You know, this is one of the bigger problems that’s arising.

00;44;36;26 – 00;44;48;16
Speaker 1
You know, in addition to what I just spent the past 30, 45 minutes talking about, as far as contracts, you know, the regulatory landscape is is ever changing as well.

00;44;48;19 – 00;44;54;05
Speaker 3
That’s interesting that as a general contractor, you’re taking on all that liability for your subs.

00;44;54;07 – 00;45;21;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you know, you have to have a contract that, that deals with that, in case, you know, Department of Labor comes knocking on your door, you know, you can you first, you should have certified payrolls even on private non prevailing wage, nonunion jobs that show. Yeah, they the wages have been paid ideally supported by cash pay stub by pay stubs and cash checks.

00;45;21;08 – 00;45;41;26
Speaker 1
You know, because ultimately, you know, in one of these cases, as a practical matter, you’re guilty until proven innocent. So the more you have to prove yourself innocent, prove the worker actually received funds, receive their pay, the better off you’ll be. I’m not saying you’re going to beat the rapids. It is very hard. Particularly when they’re making an off clock claim.

00;45;42;01 – 00;46;01;08
Speaker 1
Oh, you know, I worked 50 hours, but, you know, I they told me punch out after 40. Well, that’s the proverbial he said she said and, you know, the burden is basically on the employer to establish that. Yeah. Yeah. They only work the 40 and they got paid in full for the 40. And by the way, it’s not your employee.

00;46;01;12 – 00;46;11;25
Speaker 1
You know, it could be a total stranger from a second, third or fourth year subcontractor that you have no idea even existed until the the lawsuit shows up on your front door.

00;46;11;28 – 00;46;31;23
Speaker 3
Yeah. That is well and then and then that’s the thing, right. Is the, the unforeseen, issues. Right. That you never knew existed. So you don’t even know to protect yourself from. Yeah. And that that that’s what you know, as I was thinking about this episode, like, that’s one thing for me with my business and I think it applies to all businesses.

00;46;31;23 – 00;46;44;04
Speaker 3
It’s like, where are the blind spots legally that I don’t even know exist? And I could potentially be violating unknowingly, but I’m still going to be held liable for them. You know, it’s scary, man.

00;46;44;06 – 00;46;47;07
Speaker 2
Oh no, I was out. Yeah.

00;46;47;10 – 00;46;54;28
Speaker 1
It takes quite, quite the quite the amount of fortitude to be in business generally nowadays. Never mind a business such as construction.

00;46;55;00 – 00;46;55;27
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;46;56;00 – 00;47;08;29
Speaker 3
And in New York State. Yes. I mean, you know not to knock New York State at all. I just it is one of the harder states to do business in. We have so many rules and regulations that other states don’t have. It’s it’s wild.

00;47;09;02 – 00;47;09;16
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;47;09;19 – 00;47;21;12
Speaker 1
I had an English client yesterday and he was asking me, hey, where were the pro-business politicians? In Albany. Like, they’re in Tallahassee, Florida now because that’s where they were.

00;47;21;14 – 00;47;21;21
Speaker 2
In.

00;47;21;21 – 00;47;25;20
Speaker 3
Tennessee and everywhere else. But now York. It’s wild.

00;47;25;23 – 00;47;27;20
Speaker 2
It’s wild. Yeah, I, I.

00;47;27;26 – 00;47;44;16
Speaker 3
I probably put a phone call into my payroll rep once a month, to be like, hey, is there anything I’m supposed to be doing right now that I’m not doing? Like, because, you know, there’s all these things with, like, retirement and, you know, there’s the sexual harassment stuff and all these different things that you’re supposed to be doing as an employer.

00;47;44;16 – 00;47;50;00
Speaker 3
But the rules keep changing and they keep putting off with when they’re going to go into effect. And it’s just like, it’s.

00;47;50;00 – 00;47;52;05
Speaker 2
So confusing, man.

00;47;52;07 – 00;47;53;20
Speaker 3
So confusing.

00;47;53;22 – 00;48;05;13
Speaker 1
I know somebody she she was the executive director at a bar association and the one employee, just her she had to take the harassment training. I’m like, what? Do you do it yourself?

00;48;05;16 – 00;48;10;11
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. It’s wild. Absolutely wild.

00;48;10;13 – 00;48;32;17
Speaker 3
So Greg I know that I and this is I really I was really looking forward to asking this question actually because I, I know that it’s going on. The and the question has to do with artificial intelligence and contracts and the legal side of the business. I know people that own real estate that are, you know, using AI to write leases.

00;48;32;20 – 00;48;49;27
Speaker 3
I know people that are using it to review contracts. And I something tells me it’s not a good thing, but, I’d love to hear what your viewpoint is. What what’s the potential fallout with people relying, on artificial intelligence to be their counsel?

00;48;49;29 – 00;49;16;19
Speaker 1
Not yet. Artificial intelligence is just that. Artificial. It collects it, you know, it has the collective knowledge of mankind as set forth on the internet, but because it’s the internet, it also has the collective stupidity of mankind as well. So, yeah, it is some of the things it comes up with. I mean, okay, we’re past the days of Will Smith eating pasta with six fingers in the face, doing all sorts of contortions.

00;49;16;21 – 00;49;35;27
Speaker 1
But, you know, if you want to get into detailed critical thinking, it’s not there yet. And, you know, with some aspects, I don’t know that it will ever be there. You know, I, I don’t like the idea. And, you know, I, I see it in my practice now, I had a, I want a trial on a, on a, on a claim of very exaggerated mechanics.

00;49;35;27 – 00;49;55;04
Speaker 1
Lean. So not only did I knock out what the, what the leader was seeking of my guy, I got a judgment against the other guy for the amount of the exaggeration and whatnot, and they appealed. And my client took the entire appellate brief, threw it through ChatGPT, and said, draft me a counter brief. And he’s like, look, you know, you can take it.

00;49;55;04 – 00;50;13;14
Speaker 1
You can leave it whatever you want. And I’m like, okay, why not? I’ll look through it. He asked me to do it. You know, he wants me to charge him to do it, so I’ll do it, you know? And I looked through and one of the cases cited was a 2002 case about New York Central, Railroad versus Bob or whoever.

00;50;13;14 – 00;50;22;10
Speaker 1
It was like New York Central Railroad 2002. Well, they went out of business in the late 60s. You know, when when.

00;50;22;12 – 00;50;22;17
Speaker 2
The.

00;50;22;17 – 00;50;44;08
Speaker 1
Railroads were failing, you know, they they merged with the Pennsylvania Railroad and ultimately became Metro-North. They’re now a commuter railroad. There’s also Conrail, but New York Central Railroad hasn’t existed in a half century. And here’s a 2002 case cited. I mean, I knew just, just by looking at it and. Okay, I’m a bit of a train geek, so.

00;50;44;08 – 00;51;01;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, maybe I have a little, you know, extra thing in the back of my head, but I knew I knew it was bogus. And you hear about judges spotting this all the time? Oh, wow. That’s an interesting proposition, a law. Let me go to Westlaw. Let me go to Lexis. They pop it up. Nothing. They try by the name.

00;51;01;06 – 00;51;11;24
Speaker 1
Nothing. And you know, the term is hallucination. Yeah. I don’t know what’s scarier. The AI hallucinates, or it happens so often. There’s a damn term for it.

00;51;11;26 – 00;51;13;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, but yeah.

00;51;13;03 – 00;51;36;08
Speaker 1
I am not a fan of AI, you know, for some tasks. Some routine tasks. You know, draft me a demand letter, okay? You know, and as long as human eyes are on it to prove it, you know, saves you a half hour. Okay. You know, maybe that’s that. That’s where it can get entree, because, again, it can save labor in theory.

00;51;36;11 – 00;51;48;25
Speaker 1
But if you want to, like, delve deep into a contract that you’ve never seen before and you’re relying on the AI bot to to catch everything, then, then, yeah, you’re really rolling the dice.

00;51;48;27 – 00;51;50;07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;51;50;10 – 00;52;16;06
Speaker 3
Yeah. That’s, and I love, I, I use it in all sorts of ways these days. However, because of the amount that I use it, I can tell you firsthand the number of things that I get served up by AI. That is just leet malarkey and not even rooted in reality. And, you know, we’re I’ll be doing prompts and it’s giving me back information and I’ll be like, is that actually a real thing?

00;52;16;06 – 00;52;30;08
Speaker 3
And then it comes back like, oh, no, actually, upon further review, that’s not a real thing. And, it’s like it’s it’s pretty wild. So I obviously thought that’s what you’re going to say, but I, I wanted to, get it on the record, I guess.

00;52;30;10 – 00;52;31;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. No.

00;52;31;04 – 00;52;46;02
Speaker 1
It’s not there yet, and I don’t know that it’ll ever be there. But again, you know, for smaller tasks to, you know, relieve you of, you know, the more mundane things maybe, for larger tasks that require critical thinking. Not there yet.

00;52;46;05 – 00;52;46;22
Speaker 2
Not there.

00;52;46;23 – 00;53;05;04
Speaker 3
Okay, so I know we, we touched on that a little bit, but I wanted to, you know, from a legal side of things, you know, what are what are some of the most common mistakes that people in the trades are making with regards to their employees labor, and any of the laws that have that go along with that?

00;53;05;06 – 00;53;23;16
Speaker 1
I mean, again, it you know, these are this is a very highly regulated area. You know, we touched on the requirement to, you know, properly, you know, make sure their employees have programs for training, make sure they’re paying their employees, you know, a big one. And, you know, we see it in the news on a nightly basis.

00;53;23;18 – 00;53;43;22
Speaker 1
Now, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, that’s something you need that you have to, you know, make you have to vet your employees and make sure that they are legal to work in this country. You know, there are a number of benefits to doing so. You know, not the least of one is, you know, keeping a job for a bona fide American.

00;53;43;25 – 00;54;05;07
Speaker 1
You know, for instance, in a personal injury context, if you have an employee that presents you with a set of paperwork that looks real, I mean, it can’t look like it was drawn with a crayon. And you go through the federal E-Verify system and, you know, pops up, okay, this guy’s okay to work, which means he stole a good Social Security number, and it passes.

00;54;05;10 – 00;54;25;28
Speaker 1
And ultimately, that employee gets work, gets hurt, which we’re seeing more and, you know, including by with staged accidents. Now, you know, which is particularly more common in the, the illegal undocumented community because they have to pay off the people who, you know, smuggle them across the border. And that’s one of the ways they do it.

00;54;26;05 – 00;54;46;06
Speaker 1
But by properly vetting and making sure that, you know, as an employer, yeah, he may have snuck through, but you you did your due diligence. Now, that employee does not have a lost wage claim against you. He could still sue under the labor law. For, you know, the injury hurt, getting hurt, pain and suffering hospital bills.

00;54;46;09 – 00;55;09;01
Speaker 1
But, yeah, the biggest part of the case, which are economic damages, I mean, look, you know, you take a, a union pipe. Pipefitter. You know, they’re making, you know, 120,000 or more a year now. You know, and they’re in their early 30s and they can never work again. That’s 25, 30 years of, of of lost wages at 120,000 baseline.

00;55;09;03 – 00;55;25;14
Speaker 1
Well, you know, the union’s not going to take $120,000 without increases over the future. So you get an economist, all of a sudden you get a five, six, $7 million claim. Which goes poof, because, hey, it was never legal to work. And, you know, he he duped me into letting him work.

00;55;26;22 – 00;55;49;25
Speaker 1
So, yeah, these these are issues. And, you know, on the union side, you know, and a lot of union contractors think that the hiring holes are doing the vetting. Maybe they are. Maybe they’re not. You know, some some are better than others. But at the end of the day, the employer has a non-negligible duty to make sure that his his or her employee is legal to work.

00;55;49;28 – 00;56;08;07
Speaker 1
So if they got through the hole without any kind of a vetting process, and you think the union did it, but they didn’t, and they end up on your payroll and they’re illegal, and the ice raid comes. Okay, well, now the employer is on the hook because the employer didn’t do the, do the due diligence that they should have done in the first place.

00;56;09;14 – 00;56;12;07
Speaker 3
And you’re still liable in that and that scenario.

00;56;12;10 – 00;56;22;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, it won’t be deemed the willful but it’ll be deemed an administrative issue. And you know, you’re not going to go to you know.

00;56;22;22 – 00;56;23;00
Speaker 2
Be.

00;56;23;00 – 00;56;55;08
Speaker 1
Charged criminally for illegally hiring, you know, improper labor for hiring an, an alien. But, you know, you have an administrative issue now you’re on your own radar now, and, yeah, it’s that now you’re down an employee, you know, an ice raid, you know, will have the effect of shutting down a job for at least that day or, you know, the remainder of the week, if not longer, just because, you know, once the employees scatter.

00;56;55;08 – 00;57;03;20
Speaker 1
Now, now, who’s turn now? Who’s hitting your hat and swinging your hammers? Who’s turning your screwdrivers? Who’s pitching you shovels?

00;57;03;23 – 00;57;20;16
Speaker 3
That’s interesting. It’s wow, that that’s even a thing. But I guess it, it it is definitely a thing I, I you said it to you. So you hear it on the nightly news every day and and I feel like I do, not the nightly news, but I do constantly read about it, on the internet and, wow.

00;57;20;19 – 00;57;22;25
Speaker 3
How common that really is.

00;57;22;27 – 00;57;24;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Very, very.

00;57;24;21 – 00;57;45;23
Speaker 4
That’s, one last question kind of to follow that up. And it’s, it’s one that, you know, I’ve, dealt with in the past, but and as far as employer, mistakes with time timekeeping and time tracking, can you touch on that as far as, proper timekeeping and, and taking of breaks and such?

00;57;45;25 – 00;58;18;22
Speaker 1
Well, obviously you want to, you know, also look at your locality. I mean, you know, some counties and some cities have their own, their own rules as well. So you want to make sure you’re fully compliant, in, you know, giving, you know, whatever breaks that are required, whatever. You know, whatever timekeeping and time tracking, you know, and, you know, I get that it’s real easy to, you know, everybody has a smartphone on their hip, in their back pocket or whatnot to use those, that is a tool.

00;58;18;24 – 00;58;38;25
Speaker 1
But now you’re relying on an employee, owned device and an employee to, you know, they could be logging in from anywhere. You know, while you want to protect yourself against, you know, the employees a couple of miles away, five minutes from the job, ten minutes from the job. They log in and they’re at work when they’re not.

00;58;38;28 – 00;59;06;12
Speaker 1
You know, you also want to make sure that when they’re there. Yeah. You know, they get their they get their morning break, their afternoon break, and they get a proper lunch break. And again, you know, if you’re dealing with a public workshop, you know, there are certain set of rules, you know, if you’re dealing with, you know, pure open shop, private job, you know, you still want to, you know, make sure one, you keep your workforce happy because, you know, it’s increasingly becoming an employees market, not employers market.

00;59;06;15 – 00;59;24;28
Speaker 1
You know, good help is always been hard to find. But now even, mediocre help isn’t exactly readily available either. So you know, you have good employees, you want to keep them happy, so you might turn a blind eye. Well, that 15 minute break in the morning turns into a 20. Okay. But, you know, they get their job, they get their work done.

00;59;25;01 – 00;59;38;03
Speaker 1
And, you know, like I tell my clients like a I mean, like I even tell my kids work with me and I’ll work with you, you know, screw me and you’re not going to like it.

00;59;38;05 – 00;59;48;06
Speaker 3
Greg, I know we got to wrap it up, real quick. You want to just, one more time for the people in the portal here? If people have any questions, I want to get connected with your need some help? But how do they find you?

00;59;48;08 – 01;00;07;11
Speaker 1
Sure. Best way is email. You know, it can be gotten, you know, pretty much anywhere, any time. Email is g spawn, G, esp a u n at w b g llp.com. Or you can simply Google will be Brady and Greenblatt and we’ll pop right on up.

01;00;07;14 – 01;00;11;13
Speaker 3
Awesome. Thanks again for spend some time with us Greg. I really do appreciate it. I.

01;00;11;13 – 01;00;18;13
Speaker 1
Think thanks for having me. Happy to, happy too. Happy to chat. And, you know, again, if you have any follow ups, by all means, reach out.

01;00;18;15 – 01;00;24;23
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, we’ll have to get back on a few more months and, get some listener questions out there to you.

01;00;24;25 – 01;00;27;26
Speaker 1
Happy to help. Thanks again for having me on.

01;00;27;29 – 01;00;34;12
Speaker 3
Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it. And of course, thanks everybody for being over here on the Patreon side. Really appreciate your support and you’ll hear from us next week.

01;00;34;12 – 01;01;02;18
Speaker 1
And that wraps up another episode of Blue Collar Startup. A big thank you to our sponsors, Five Towers Media, Daigle Cleaning Systems, Daigle Fire Solutions, The Michaels Group, Martin Electric, MLB construction, Pinocchio Construction People, and Catamount Consulting for making this podcast possible. And thank you for tuning in. If you learned something or felt inspired. Connect with us on our website at Blue Collar Startup Bio or email us at hardhat Dot CSU at gmail.com.

01;01;02;18 – 01;01;14;27
Speaker 1
We’d love to hear your questions and topic ideas. Help us spread the word by sharing the show and following us on social media for updates. Until next time, keep on building. Keep on dreaming and keep hustling like your future depends on it.

01;01;14;27 – 01;01;30;07
Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh, hey.