How Better Onboarding Creates Better Employees

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Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh!

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Unknown
Oh!

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Speaker 2
Welcome, everyone to blue collar start up. I’m one of your hosts, Mike Nelson from Five Towers Media.

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Speaker 3
And I’m your host, Derek Foster at Daigle Cleaning Systems. I don’t like.

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Speaker 2
What’s up there. For our listeners, the home that these in the in the vehicle right now traveling. So he’s he’s on there. But, if you’re watching, you can’t see is see his photo. That’s why I’m good, man. You know, like we were just talking about. It’s it’s, things are hectic, and I don’t necessarily mean in a bad way right now, but, just a lot happening and a lot of moving pieces.

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Speaker 2
A lot of a lot of stuff going on, man. How about you stay home?

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Speaker 3
Yeah, we’re. Hence why I’m on the road. And I have been in on the field the last, couple episodes here, but, it take a while, you can get it right and, do what you got to do, so. And through it and, you know, we’re we’re excited. We’re we’re, moving and shaking over here, but.

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Speaker 3
Yeah, that’s been acting for sure.

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Speaker 2
That’s good. Good, good. Well, let’s get into it, man. We got ourselves another let’s ask Bill episode here with Bill Tansey from the opex shop, also known as the Business Lab. And I got to be honest with you, Bill, I, I’m excited about today’s episode because we’re going to talk a little bit about, onboarding, team members, and, and training team members.

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Speaker 2
And it’s, it’s, it’s perfect timing for me personally, Bill, because I’m onboarding a new team member right now, and I’m sure I’m doing it wrong. So I can’t wait to to hear what I should be doing. So Bill, what’s happening brother?

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Speaker 1
Hey, guys. Thanks. Welcome back. We’re here again.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I feel like. Did we just record an episode a couple weeks ago?

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Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2
Last week. Oh, yeah. But last week we ended. We were doing the, our new podcast, the fractional operator. We did, we actually switched that up last minute. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Got shanghaied into that that.

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Speaker 2
So I did Shanghai into that. How about them apples on. Right.

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Speaker 1
With a twist. See, we’re talking about how I operate my business, not how I service clients and that kind of thing. So we’ll differ.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was great.

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Speaker 3
So, So, Mike. Well, you, while you’re on the subject. Yeah. You know, kind of teasing that, I think it’s good for the audience to to hear kind of what that, fractional operator show is about and, and what you’re trying to accomplish. So, quickly by, plug it in.

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Speaker 2
All right. Well, not to not to take it away from from Bill, but. All right, if you insist, I will I will plug the podcast real quick. Yeah. So the fractional operator is a podcast built in, designed for just what it says, fractional operators. Well, we’ve seen over the last five years is a huge boom in the fractional operator, modality, I guess we can call that.

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Speaker 2
And what that means for everybody is for years, you know, built.

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Speaker 2
So I’ve been a fractional CMO. And really, you know, we used to just call it outsource. And actually Bill and I talk about this on the episode a little bit. But it used to just be like your outsourced marketing department, your outsourced, cheap operation operations officer. So, just, you know, the last couple of years, everybody started calling it fractional.

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Speaker 2
It’s cooler, I guess, but also it helps, kind of explain that little bit more, right? Because it it automatically implies that you’re not a full time employee and that you’re probably working with other businesses as well. But because of the boom in that industry and what we see that as a continuing trend, in no small part because of I and what it’s doing to the the jobs market.

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Speaker 2
We decided to launch that podcast in conjunction with a piece of software that we built, for fractional operators called hourglass SaaS, which SaaS is software as a service. So, yeah. So we’re really excited about that. You know, essentially it’s going to be very similar to this podcast, but we’re going to be spending our time with people in the fractional community like Bill, not just talking about what they do and how they do it, but kind of, you know, what they’ve seen throughout the years.

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Speaker 2
Again, very similar to blue collar, startup, but focused on the fractional, operator sector. So excited about that. Excited about the software we just launched. Yeah. So thanks for let me do that plug, guys.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. Congratulations on launching this.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, really really stoked about that. So and part of the reason why things are so hectic right now. Right. So many moving parts and pieces. But but let’s get to the show here guys. Let’s talk about onboarding and training in a structured process business. What we all aspire to be I guess. Bill, I know I sent you an outline here.

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Speaker 2
I’ll try to stick to it as much as a as much as possible. So there’s no huge surprises. But let’s, let’s start off with, you know, when you’re working with clients, you’re walking into do trades business, and the owner is saying something along the lines of, I just can’t find good people. How often do you think that is actually an onboarding problem in disguise?

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Speaker 2
And, and then maybe talk a little bit about the difference between onboarding and training, because I guess realistically they really are two different things.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. So finally good people starts before onboarding. And so we should probably chat about that a little bit. You know. So if we think about it, one of the things we talked about before on the podcast is this having clear expectations. Right. So understanding what success looks like. And that starts with the, job description of who it is you’re trying to hire.

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Speaker 1
And, and you know as well as I do, I can safely say, especially in like, let’s say, for example, the contractor space right now, you know, somebody says, I need to hire a framer. Well, there’s no clear expectations on what that means. It’s just like, well, we all kind of know where framers like you got a bell?

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Speaker 1
You got a hammer? Yeah. Nail gun. And, you stand up the structure. Right. But the, the expectations are, I think, especially in that space, are rarely clear on what that means are going in. So what does it mean for when do you have to show up to work? When don’t you show up to work? Like, is it okay to be smoking on the job.

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Speaker 1
Don’t know. Right. What, you know, all the things that that, need to be clearly outlined from the beginning so that the person, recruiting to fill the position or interviewing to fill the position, has an objective set of things to look for. Number one. And number two, the person agreeing to sign on to the position knows up front, what’s expected, because as much as, especially, from my own experience, I say especially the blue collar space is currently.

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Speaker 1
Just shut up and do the job. Driver. Bulldozers driving a bulldozer. Well, you know, it’s it’s not. Every boss has got a different set of expectations. Residential construction might be different than commercial construction. Never mind. If you have a government job you’re working on or something like that, those expectations of how you show up to the job are different.

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Speaker 1
You have your shirt off and residential construction, commercial construction. You probably can have your shirt off, you know, so simple things like that. Those things tend to add up. And, guys with short patience or short temper say, the hell with it, I’m out of here. Don’t show up tomorrow. And bosses say, hey, I can’t I can’t hire great guys, you know?

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Speaker 1
So, I think with the within, the theme of what we often talk about and that’s standard work, there’s some standard work that begins before you go out and and try and hire an on board, you know, good people and keep them. And that standard work is this gets expectations crystal clear. And, yeah. So probably important to acknowledge that.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. I, you know, it’s funny, as you’re talking about, I’m just thinking about me and my inability to communicate expectations in a lot of cases, because I just think people should know, you know, like, I just think that they should, They should.

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Speaker 2
Understand and pick up on my brainwaves. I you know what I mean? That they’re like, I’m sure you see that before where we just some of the things you just think people should just know, when they take the job. And what I’m finding is that’s just not the case.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. Especially today, I think. I think there’s been a pivot and there’s going to change over time in response to changes. But this is one that’s tricky. Like, you know, I think back to my first, you know, call blue collar job, I was a laborer on a framing crew. And you know, that. Then there was 17, you know, I showed up to work and I pretty much knew that, you know, more or less what the expectations were.

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Speaker 1
And I feel like today you put any 17 year old in that seat and have them show up to a residential construction site. And, you know, they they don’t even know what to do the minute they step out of their truck. Never mind, you know, on the job site, you know, hey, put your tool belt out. Hey, do you have this?

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Speaker 1
Do you have that? You know, watch out. It’s a safety, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think times have changed, and I think it’s, more important than ever, to, to get that stuff, those expectations crystal clear. And, and I think that goes a long way to, you know, finding good people.

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Speaker 1
The other component of it, too, is, you know, it’s a real balanced employee, employer kind of relationship. And, you know, these days, like it or not, that labor force is commanding a lot more money per hour than they were five years ago, you know? So so I think that sometimes there’s an adjustment there as well where, you know, there’s certain clients I had that I work with that they’re still living in a pre-COVID economy, and they can’t figure out why they can’t hire people.

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Speaker 1
So you want to increase the hourly rate four bucks an hour and see the difference in applicants that come in. And, you know, sure enough, that makes a difference. So, you know, there’s been a there’s been a big shift in, in the labor market as well, and the expectations of the labor market. So it’s not just it’s not just the employers expectation, but the employee expectations have to be met, too.

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Speaker 1
So it’s kind of a handshake deal that goes both ways.

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Speaker 2
And Derek real quick to I, I muted your microphone just in case. Try to jump on. There is a little bit of feedback coming through. But so if you if you want to unmute you can but I just want to let you know I had to do it. There you go.

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Speaker 3
To be honest there for a second.

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Speaker 2
I saw you were like, I did it. And then I was like, oh shit, he’s driving. He might have, you know, and he’s going to be trying to ask a question and we won’t even know. And then, yeah, sorry about that. There’s just all sudden there is stuff coming through the mic and I’m not sure what it was, but sorry about that.

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Speaker 2
The were you trying to.

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Speaker 1
Ask a question.

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Speaker 3
No. All good. I mean, you know, I can personally attest, you know exactly what Bill saying. It took us a long time to put in a formal onboarding process. And you actually, once you do it and you lay it out for everybody and set those expectations up front, people get onto the job site, they feel more comfortable.

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Speaker 3
They feel like they they have a good understanding and a training time in the field. It’s actually reduced somewhat. So there’s a little bit of savings on that. And the other side of it is, you know, you’re also weeding out the people who see that you have a structured operation. And we’ve had folks that have sat down that are onboarding and listen to our orientation video and have gotten up and walked out, and that’s okay.

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Speaker 3
You know, so setting that standard, you know, I can certainly attest it’s very, very important.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. That’s why they had someone walk out during the orientation video.

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Speaker 3
Oh, it’s happened several times.

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Speaker 2
Wow. I got to watch that video.

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Speaker 3
It just shows it show structure. It tells everybody upfront. You know what? Here’s what we do if you know how we operate. And, some people don’t don’t they don’t take well to that and, they don’t want structure. We want folks that are able to follow direction and, and be able to be coachable.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. It’s it’s interesting finding out, which I just did recently. You know, when you make I don’t even want to say about hire will you make a good hire. But that person ends up just structurally not being able to fit into how you operate as a business. Nothing against them is people or even their abilities, but just some people just naturally gravitate towards certain kinds of structure or lack of structure or whatever it is, and some don’t.

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Speaker 2
And it’s, it’s something I guess I have seen over the years, but it’s not something I’ve seen often, so just got it. Got a little reminder recently for sure.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah I Derek I appreciate where you’re coming from. I mean a little bit of accountability goes a long way, right. So, letting the employee know that they’re going to be held accountable, weeds out the, the ones that are, that are self-aware enough to know that they don’t succeed or perform well in that environment. And I think, you know, if I were back to showing up on the job, say, 17 years old, as a laborer on a Freeman crew, if you imagine if, you know, when I was talking to the guys about the job, if they said, hey, you know, back then there’s no email, so, hey, swing by the

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Speaker 1
house. Let me give you a one pager that has all the expectations outlined, you know, and, you know, if you’re not a confident, get after it kind of kid, you’d see that and be like, I don’t think I can do this, you know, and you wouldn’t show up. And that’s, you know, in essence that’s the first test, right?

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Speaker 1
So creating structure, creating accountability and using that as the first test often during the interview process, I think is is critical to avoiding your core bad hire.

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Speaker 2
Bill, is there anything else that, you know, new Irish or that a process business should have before the new hire shows up for day one?

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Speaker 1
Yeah, these days that’s actually, relatively simple to answer. So what I would normally say is, well, you need a business process. And if you can automate that with software or a bot or something to help out, that’s great. But these days, with these days, I mean, it’s been 15 years. But with cloud computing, the barrier to entry for software, new software is low.

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Speaker 1
So there’s a lot of human resource information systems out there that kind of walk you through all the things you need to do before having the person at the job site the first day. And, those systems allow you to do it with zero error, you know, so the, you know, to Derek’s point about accountability and structure, you tell the person you’re hired, hey, pay attention to your email.

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Speaker 1
You’re going to get instructions, via your email to log into the system and get yourself set up. And if they don’t take initiative, can’t, you know, check their email once a day kind of thing. Like, you know, these are really room for the, you know, for someone like that on the team these days. You know, more more often than not.

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Speaker 1
No. You know, they need basic accountability to check their email and they know something’s coming in and then they click through and complete their onboarding. So there’s a series of onboarding tasks and any onboarding process that are required to be compliant. And outside of the compliance, we also have to remember that that’s like that’s the first time, other than the interview, that’s the first time that that somebody is engaging with the business at all.

00;15;24;00 – 00;15;50;04
Speaker 1
So again, that’s expectation setting kind of first impressions really happen then. So on the employer side, that’s why it’s so important to have that stuff go is zero error. Go smooth and get it on. And from the employer looking out at the new employee, it’s a first chance for to see if they, you know, respond on time, respond appropriately and, and that their first project essentially is to self on board using your electronic system, to see if they can lead themselves through it.

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Speaker 1
So, in addition to that, there’s a bunch of employer work. That has to happen, you know, before that onboarding and that’s, setting up what things look like when that new employee comes into the business. Day one. Right. So what what are the expectations when they show up day one. And those things have to be squared away, organized and ready to go.

00;16;12;23 – 00;16;43;23
Speaker 1
So not only are you onboarding the new employee, but during that time you should be doing kind of the finishing touches on whatever that, assimilation process or, or, you know, day one, if you will, onboarding, cultural onboarding, technical onboarding, whatever you want to call, I call it assimilation and competence building. But, that those finishing touches seem to be getting wrapped up as well so that that you’re ready to go and, and, again, continuous and expectations for the new guy.

00;16;43;25 – 00;16;45;17
Speaker 1
Expectations.

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Speaker 2
That’s what. So they walk in new employee walks in. Right. And we’ve talked about work instructions in the past statement work SOPs.

00;16;56;07 – 00;17;13;12
Speaker 2
So when you’re looking at the first 30, 60, 90 days, what does that arc typically look like? Where does that stuff show up without drowning? The new hire in, you know, read this massive manual and learn it.

00;17;13;15 – 00;17;36;11
Speaker 1
Managing payroll and workers comp shouldn’t slow you down. People. These PEO delivers a complete solution for hard to place workers comp seamless payroll, air support and benefits management. Built specifically for blue and gray collar industries. From pay as you go workers comp to streamlined onboarding, compliance and competitive benefits, people EES will help you stay protected, efficient, and focused on the job.

00;17;36;13 – 00;17;46;25
Speaker 1
Visit people e-comm or call (941) 224-8981 to learn more. Make sure you ask for Nick.

00;17;46;28 – 00;18;02;04
Speaker 2
So when you’re looking at the first 30, 60, 90 days, what does that arc typically look like? Where does that stuff show up without drowning? The new hire in, you know, read this massive manual and learn it.

00;18;02;06 – 00;18;05;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. So,

00;18;05;28 – 00;18;27;19
Speaker 1
If you’re, process based organization. Right. And if you’ve got documented work instructions, SOPs, what have you, it’s a pretty simple, process of bringing that person up to speed. And first off, by my assessment, it’s not 30 days, 60 days or 90 days. This is not a this is not a time bound thing. So a lot of companies say, oh, first 30 days probationary period.

00;18;27;19 – 00;18;53;24
Speaker 1
Well, what does that mean? What what what’s the probation? What what am I being, evaluated on? And why is it 30 days? So, I don’t like, you know, random numbers, right? 36. And so instead, and I also don’t like classroom onboarding either, by the way. So I don’t like having someone in the classroom for the first week, watching videos, hearing people talk, and then taking a test.

00;18;53;24 – 00;19;16;08
Speaker 1
And if they get a D or better on the test, you know they’re good to go, right? Since though I don’t like either of those setups. When you’ve got process and structure, what I like to do is identify competence that needs to be demonstrated. Enroll how I to identify which piece of standard work sets the standard for that competence.

00;19;16;11 – 00;19;46;19
Speaker 1
Right. To identify who owns that standard. Work as a mentor against the competence that needs to be developed. And then, for each of those line items of competencies needed and associated standard work and mentor. I like to see that mentor take the new employee through the four phases of competence building. And what that does is it, helps the new employee, be crystal clear on what success looks like.

00;19;46;19 – 00;20;12;25
Speaker 1
So the day one, you hand them this list of competencies and mentors and documents that they need to read the document, connect with the mentor and demonstrate that competence in. That’s kind of their their first project. So your goal right now is to succeed at this project. I just handed you self guide yourself through this. And that’s their first if you will test, of their willingness to be held accountable and to be successful.

00;20;12;27 – 00;20;32;24
Speaker 1
Number one. Number two, that sets the standard for how much time is required for each person. Right? So, it’s not a 30 day program. It’s do it until you’re done, get it done as quick as possible. And I do put some rough due dates in there to kind of guide the sequence of events, but at the end of the day, they’re free to work ahead and let’s see if they do.

00;20;32;24 – 00;20;54;13
Speaker 1
And also, the mentorship is split up. It’s not just the one guy on site who’s really good or the one manager who has a lot of patience, but the mentors are split up by their areas of expertise to help share their expertise with with the new employee. And it it helps answer the question, are we spending enough time with this person or not?

00;20;54;13 – 00;21;09;29
Speaker 1
Right. Because you’re walking them through those four steps. If they’re progressing through the four steps on any reasonable timeline, then you’re spending enough time on them. If they’re not progressing, you might not be spending enough. And if they’re done and you know, in two seconds, great, we move them on to the next phase. They’re they’re capable of learning that quickly.

00;21;09;29 – 00;21;43;07
Speaker 1
So, I tend to avoid like a 30, 60, 90 type of thing. If it’s a process based organization. I also tend to avoid come in, sit down, read this book, watch this movie, take a test, and instead use a more OJT focused mentorship program that I call assimilation and competence demonstration. And that’s where they come in and assimilate to the organization by talking with people and then have a chance to, to learn, build and then demonstrate that they’re competent to, to succeed.

00;21;43;09 – 00;22;01;02
Speaker 2
So it what I hear you saying, or to boil it down anyway, is it sounds like really getting them into doing the actual work as quick as possible with some constraints, obviously, and guide rails, but getting them into that, like, here’s the things you’re going to be doing. Let’s start doing them and see how quickly you pick it up.

00;22;01;07 – 00;22;05;22
Speaker 2
Based on the tools and documentation that we’re providing.

00;22;05;25 – 00;22;23;15
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. In the tools in the documentation set those guardrails, they set the minimum expectation for success. And if they learn, if they’re the type of person that learns by reading, hey, great. They just read that document. But, if they’re more kinesthetic, hands on learning, they have that opportunity to that through the mentorship component of it.

00;22;23;15 – 00;22;45;28
Speaker 1
So it kind of hits everything from all angles. And, what what I found is that that method, really accelerates the return on employee investment. So you see the new hire come on board. We very quickly, in a rare circumstance where we made a bad hire, very rare at this point because of some of the things we do upfront.

00;22;46;00 – 00;23;07;05
Speaker 1
We’re able to weed that bad hire out super quick through this process, right? Because they’re held accountable from day one against this plan that they have to execute on. But more often than not, it helps us get them up to speed and working, autonomously, you know, on their own with support of the tools and, and paying back on the employee investment, they’re actually returning value to the, to the company.

00;23;07;07 – 00;23;31;27
Speaker 1
So, so super, super powerful. We also see a significant reduction in errors of work. What we do that. Right. So, you know, errors turn into rework. They turn to dissatisfied customers. They turn into lots of other problems. So this is this is what we found to be the fastest way to, to get somebody up to speed, comfortable, and limit the errors in the, in the process.

00;23;32;00 – 00;23;52;24
Speaker 2
You make me feel really good here so far, Bill, because, the employee I’m on boarding right now, I’m actually following a similar process with getting them right into actually doing the work with the supervision of a mentor. That’s kind of guiding them through the process and and watching what they’re doing and, and of course, correcting them, so to speak, as they, make decision things.

00;23;52;24 – 00;23;58;28
Speaker 2
So, we’re good. We’re we’re green light so far, Bill, I was really, planning for the worst here.

00;23;59;01 – 00;24;01;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I love it, though. There’s still time. Let’s see how it goes. But that’s good.

00;24;01;23 – 00;24;05;05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, I know we still got some questions. Let them. Yeah.

00;24;05;08 – 00;24;07;07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Off to an unusually good start though. Like.

00;24;07;10 – 00;24;10;08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah okay. So good. I am 30.

00;24;10;13 – 00;24;33;14
Speaker 1
In an organization like Derek. If he doesn’t have a system in place like we’re talking about, that’s a perfect area where like a system like we’re talking about could be exceptionally strong, right. Because it’s such a hands on environment and because of getting, that relatively unskilled labor force to align with the expectations of the business quickly without sinking a ton of his time or other manager’s time to get in there.

00;24;33;17 – 00;24;37;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know he’s driving and probably jumping for the mute button right now, so.

00;24;38;00 – 00;24;42;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t meet him, so, I’m out there, you.

00;24;43;01 – 00;25;02;01
Speaker 3
Know, I, I, I hear you, Bill, and, you know, I guess it can seem like a daunting task. So do you have any, advice for somebody who is operating a business and needs to input this as to where to start or what they can do? I guess, to relieve some of the administrative burden.

00;25;02;04 – 00;25;29;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s that’s a great point, Derek. It is that it’s a huge lift to put a program like this together. It’s an absolutely huge lift. And there are some presuppositions that we didn’t speak about. And that is one you have to have some of the things we’ve talked about before. You have to have a standard organization with standard roles, so that if you hire somebody into the standard role of engineer, what are the modules in this assimilation and competence model that you that you bring forward for them?

00;25;29;19 – 00;25;58;10
Speaker 1
Versus if you hire somebody into the standard role of technician and what what modules or what competencies do they need to demonstrate. So kind of building out that model is a really, really big lift. Some of the things you can do to kind of limit that or work with industry or trade groups, a lot of times there’s kind of industry best practice for stuff that, for a lot of businesses, although it might not be perfectly aligned with their business, it’s like 80 plus percent aligned with their business, right?

00;25;58;17 – 00;26;20;14
Speaker 1
In some cases, the industry best in class or best practices or beyond what the business is doing. So, in a lot of, hands on, you know, transactional type work, you can rely on some of those industry trade groups to provide you with some of the documentation, guidance and help with some of that expectation setting. So you can kind of pirate from that.

00;26;20;14 – 00;26;40;14
Speaker 1
That’s what they’re there for, to support those kind of things. So that can help a lot. Michael, you can probably speak better than I can, but, you know, some of the AI tools and stuff that are out there today as well. I’ve yet to play, but from what I understand, you know, you can video somebody doing work and and I can, you know, develop a work of structure in some cases that gets you a large portion of the way there.

00;26;40;15 – 00;26;46;02
Speaker 1
Then you go in and revise. I, I don’t know if that’s something you’ve played with, but I’ve heard of such.

00;26;46;05 – 00;27;16;26
Speaker 2
I don’t know about the video to work instruction unless because realistically, like with the eyes, we’re not, uploading actual video. We’re uploading either screenshots and or a transcript or text. And then from there, yeah, for sure, you can create a work instruction in no problem based on the inputs that you’re giving it. But it’s the eye is still not at a point where it can just take a video and it can listen to what you’re saying and see what you’re saying on video.

00;27;16;26 – 00;27;20;23
Speaker 2
It can would still images, but there’s still a gap on the video side.

00;27;20;25 – 00;27;23;27
Speaker 1
Good news. So they can still hire a guy like me to come in and help.

00;27;23;27 – 00;27;46;22
Speaker 2
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, built in a lot of professions, a lot of industries, but especially in the trades, you know, the, the skill lives in, you know, quote unquote, in someone’s hands, right? Their judgment, their feel, their technique, expertise. They’ve been doing it for 25 years. You know, I immediately think of of taping and mudding.

00;27;46;25 – 00;28;03;15
Speaker 2
Right. So how do you train someone through that with a written process? Like what? What’s actually going to transfer? And to your point about the OT, J you know, what really needs to happen with getting into hands on stuff?

00;28;03;17 – 00;28;25;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaking of tape, in the morning, I’m super slow. You know, I could I could use some coaching myself there when I had to DIY that the, Yeah, that’s a good question. Number one, I think we need to acknowledge, you know, kind of two things. One is there’s a difference between technique and style, and technique is at the core.

00;28;25;06 – 00;28;48;08
Speaker 1
So it doesn’t matter who you are. It’s like you could look at any sport boxing, ski racing, etc., and you look across the history of champions. And, you know, the basic technique is there, and the style that kind of rides on top might be subtly different and works for some enough for others. So first off, when it comes to the hands on stuff, we really want to, we really want to be careful to talk about technique and not style.

00;28;48;08 – 00;29;13;09
Speaker 1
Right? So that’s a that’s a subtlety that we want to acknowledge. But one in the number two, with any of that stuff, the learning comes with getting in hands on, trying it and making small mistakes and learning from those mistakes. And that’s where that, you know, kind of four step competence building comes in, is that you’ve got a mentor looking over your shoulder and catching the mistake when it’s made the first time.

00;29;13;09 – 00;29;35;18
Speaker 1
So let’s use taping. You know, I’m sitting in a room right now that I don’t know. I mean, I have to do the math on sheets of sheetrock, but there’s a lot of there’s a lot of linear inches of tape in here. Right. So if you’re working with a mentor and let’s say it’s, phase two where you’re in the driver’s seat and the mentors watching you in those four phases.

00;29;35;21 – 00;29;50;24
Speaker 1
The minute you make a mistake, the mentor should be able to kind of put their hand on your shoulder and say, hey, time out. See what happened here. This is the right way to do it, so this doesn’t happen, etc. then theoretically you learn from that and continue on, and the next small mistake you make, the mentor is able to grab you immediately.

00;29;50;26 – 00;30;21;08
Speaker 1
Likewise, if you progress on to phase three, your mentor may be in the next room taping the next room, but the mentor every hour or so stops in to check on the room you’re taping and catch your errors then, so you’re only made one hour’s worth of errors. Worst case, if you’ve kind of gone astray. So, that’s where that mentorship is critical is, allowing that new person who’s doing that kind of hands on balance between, you know, art style and technique, to have those lessons learned without them being catastrophic.

00;30;21;08 – 00;30;34;03
Speaker 1
You can imagine if someone was left for the day, eight hours to do work on taping, and then the mentor foreman shows up at the end of the day to see how it was going. And there’s eight hours worth of mistakes. That’s a very different take.

00;30;34;06 – 00;30;36;07
Speaker 2
Take it all down and redo it tomorrow.

00;30;36;09 – 00;31;02;15
Speaker 1
Right? Right. So so, yeah, that that’s, that’s a critical piece for sure is, again, acknowledging the difference between style and technique and, really focusing on technique and getting that right. And the final outcome and, and allowing the new guy or the new person to make small mistakes that are caught and corrected early so they don’t become costly.

00;31;02;17 – 00;31;24;18
Speaker 2
So along with the mentorship idea, which, by the way, I, I really do like and think is important and a couple I’m actually part of this is going to be not part of the outline and say Bill, but it but it’s in line with though at two things. Number one, a lot of owners default to let’s throw the new guy with our best guy.

00;31;24;21 – 00;32;02;17
Speaker 2
So I want to talk about why that that can be a really expensive onboarding decision and possibly not the best decision. But also in that is knowing that maybe your best guy is not going to be a great mentor. Yeah. And yep. And how that affects that decision because I know like like personally when it comes to certain parts of our business, like I’m a terrible mentor, I, I like I’m not the person that is going to be the best at being able to help someone learn and understand, and I can certainly identify mistakes, but, and then other aspects of the business I am a pretty good mentor at and, and should be the

00;32;02;17 – 00;32;07;23
Speaker 2
person, but I’m not always the right guy. So let’s let’s talk about that whole decision making process.

00;32;07;26 – 00;32;31;04
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So number one, you have to split up the mentorship. So in any like reasonable size organization, that new person needs to build relationships with multiple people in the organization. And one of the ways we know we build relationships is by overcoming challenges together. Right? Mentorship. So, so, for social reasons alone and for long term success, we need to spread out the mentorship.

00;32;31;04 – 00;32;49;04
Speaker 1
And one of the things we’ve also talked about on one of the other podcasts was the Gallup Organization and their survey of what makes a great company. And one of those things that and like I, I think there’s key things on the list. I can never remember more than 2 or 3, but the one that I always remember is do you have a best friend at work?

00;32;49;06 – 00;33;13;23
Speaker 1
So is the essentially what they’re asking is, does somebody at work care about you? The quickest way to have a best friend at work is to have a mentorship onboarding program, where you’re building relationships with multiple people early. Hopefully, if you’re building relationships with a half dozen people across a 40 person company within the first 2 or 3 weeks, hopefully one of those half dozen people and you have some things in common and somebody, you know, tends to care.

00;33;13;26 – 00;33;42;03
Speaker 1
And, that goes a long way to, retention and continued growth and success. So, I think spreading out the mentorship is important. Number one. And number two, I think you hit on it, the best guy at the place may not be the best mentor. And there’s a big difference. I hate to use this phrase, but I, in this case, it’s applicable, you know, fifth graders teaching third graders.

00;33;42;05 – 00;34;04;00
Speaker 1
If the fifth grader is a better teacher than the college professor, or can communicate better to the third grader, let the fifth grader teach the third grader. Right. And we only need to get them to to competence. We don’t need to get them to absolute expertise. There’s plenty of time for them to learn from the college professor who’s abstract and hard to understand and and not a great teacher.

00;34;04;00 – 00;34;28;25
Speaker 1
Right? That can come later, but really, you want to get them in front of the person that that communicates most effectively with them. So this is a case where fifth graders teaching third graders are is kind of okay because these are bare minimum competencies. And that’s a consideration as well. And then finally, the cost of training employees, in my experience, most small and medium sized companies don’t have never quantified the cost.

00;34;28;25 – 00;34;53;19
Speaker 1
The cost is tremendous. And there’s a whole bunch of cost, right? There’s the actual cost of training, like someone else’s time. There’s the cost of mistakes or cost avoidance. There’s all these components, that make up the costs of bringing a new person to the business. And they’re pretty they’re pretty overwhelming if you look at them entirely. And your best guy is oftentimes your best paid guy, too.

00;34;53;25 – 00;35;16;08
Speaker 1
And, and as a business, you have to decide, again, does this really require the highest paid person to train this new person? In an ideal case, absolutely not. You know, that highest pay person, let’s say there a director level. Well below them there’s a manager and below them maybe there’s a supervisor. So why can’t the supervisor or the manager run them through this program that we’re talking about?

00;35;16;08 – 00;35;33;04
Speaker 1
That should be more than sufficient. So, so kind of a bunch of different prongs to that. But but at the end of the day, and also if the, if the best person in the company doesn’t find it rewarding to coach, they’re going to leave because they don’t want to deal with all the new kids, you know.

00;35;33;04 – 00;35;43;10
Speaker 1
So now you’ve lost the best guy because you don’t have them applied where they’re strong. Right? So kind of a worst possible outcome, if you will, from that standpoint. But I think there’s a bunch of pieces to that.

00;35;43;13 – 00;36;10;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. It sounds like their ability to communicate well is going to be chief amongst them. Right. Like I’m just thinking about like, you know, if you’ve got like an employee, a team member that’s really good at what they do, but they’re really not the most friendliest of people, let’s say, you know, like they just want to do their job and they want to do a great they don’t want to have to like, use a babysitter hand hold or explain.

00;36;10;25 – 00;36;16;18
Speaker 2
And they’re just not good at communicating. Probably not the person you want in that mentorship position.

00;36;16;20 – 00;36;34;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. When we stand up, the programs like this, assimilation and competence modeling that I’m talking about, you have to kind of qualify to be a mentor, right? So there’s a set of competencies you need to demonstrate first before you can be a mentor. Right. And that’s an important piece as well. To Derrick’s question about overhead and what it takes to develop these out.

00;36;35;03 – 00;36;56;08
Speaker 1
If you don’t want to develop out a mentorship competence module will then, you know, identify the the guy who’s coaching basketball travel team for the kids after school. Well, he’s got some experience. He’s coaching charity. It’s not even rec level. Right. So she’s maybe we should ask that person or the, you know, the mom that’s, leading the Girl Scout troop or whatever the case may be.

00;36;56;10 – 00;37;17;12
Speaker 1
I think, you can kind of scheme for these people. That way. Number one, in the number two, if you spend as a leader, if you spend time with your people at the point where work is being done, it’s usually pretty quick to see who naturally gravitate towards wanting to help and who gravitate towards wanting to be left alone and do their job right.

00;37;17;12 – 00;37;27;26
Speaker 1
And then they kind of self-select. But, yeah, yeah, that’s important pieces. Identifying the right mentors, for the program is critical.

00;37;27;28 – 00;37;47;05
Speaker 2
So, when it comes to onboarding, obviously we want to be able to identify if it’s actually working and we want to do that sooner than later. Right. So maybe, you know, can you talk about any leading indicators versus lagging indicators. You know, like if someone’s quitting a month for was it an onboarding failure or hiring failure?

00;37;47;07 – 00;37;52;11
Speaker 2
Like, how do you know when your onboarding processes are solid?

00;37;52;14 – 00;38;14;27
Speaker 1
Good question. It’s oftentimes it’s oftentimes hard to assign root cause to some of these in the first few months. And the reason for that is there’s a ton of moving parts. Right. So if we’re being honest, a lot of times it’s hard to identify root cause, now a bunch of people can come into a room and pontificate and try and arrive on something.

00;38;14;29 – 00;38;31;15
Speaker 1
And, sometimes that’s helpful. But at the end of the day, I found it’s really difficult. So, you know, did they get a bad taste in the mouth during the documentation in early onboarding because the data system didn’t work, and then they got in the first day and something else didn’t work on the first day. Like, this place is a mess.

00;38;31;15 – 00;38;46;22
Speaker 1
I’m out of here. Right. Or or was it mentor number two was a jerk to them or mentor number three, you know, didn’t show up when they were supposed to be there. Right? That’s a big mess. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen, like, mentors like reschedule or postpone or not show up like danger. Right?

00;38;46;22 – 00;39;17;24
Speaker 1
Bad, bad, bad like that. You got to make that your top priority at that point. So, so sometimes it’s tricky to figure out, it’s tricky to figure out root cause as to why somebody leaves. How to know if you’re doing well is is relatively easy to figure out. There’s a there’s a statistic out there I’ll it but general direction of it says something like within your first three days of your new job, you know, whether you’re going to stay for a long time or kind of leave, like ASAP.

00;39;17;27 – 00;39;47;27
Speaker 1
So and I’m sure that, you know, Google could probably find that study that showed that. And it was like sometime within the first three days of work, you know, if you want to stick around this place or not. So, if they’re progressing through their competence demonstration, the training program, what have you, if they’re progressing through a quickly, if they’re, taking initiative to execute that without kind of kicking and screaming or being dragged through it, I think all those things are are early signs and critical signs.

00;39;47;27 – 00;40;05;29
Speaker 1
I think it’s also really important when you have a cross-section of different mentors working with them, that those mentors are getting together and doing a brief review on the. So, you know, Derek’s the new guy. Derek spent time with four mentors so far. Derek’s hiring managers should pull those four mentors in a room and say, hey, how’s Derek do it?

00;40;06;04 – 00;40;24;24
Speaker 1
And, the feedback is usually pretty quick, when it comes to that, you know, because those mentors and mentor other people before. Derek. Right. They’re the standard guys mentoring the new people as they come through. So, yeah. But at the end of the day,

00;40;24;26 – 00;40;47;00
Speaker 1
I think it it’s it’s hard to know where you drop the ball sometimes if people leave, and it’s, relatively easy to know if you’re doing a good job with, you know, with the retention numbers and the, the, people taking initiative, lack of errors, wanting more that, kind of, that kind of thing.

00;40;47;00 – 00;40;52;09
Speaker 1
I think all the stuff you see, normally you just see it super quick on the onboarding if you’re doing it right.

00;40;52;11 – 00;40;59;08
Speaker 2
If you’re doing it right. Yeah. And then you got to make sure you don’t choose to ignore it like I often name.

00;40;59;11 – 00;41;32;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Great point. I think, you know, another thing that’s changed more and more, you know, recognition, verbal recognition, feedback that a bit the people are doing well in the process. You know, some of the clients I work with and I think it’s great, like, you know, they hold back a little bit on their hiring salary and, you know, as soon as it’s observed that the person is kicking ass in their, in their training, their assimilation work, competence demonstration, they, they give them kind of an early bump, says, hey, you know, talk to the mentors and sounds like things are going well.

00;41;32;16 – 00;41;55;10
Speaker 1
How are you feeling? And if the feedback from the new guy is also positive, then they get a bump, you know, kind of thing. So, I think that’s important to acknowledge as well. You know, financial rewards always been important. That’s why they call work. That’s why we go to our jobs. But, nowadays the verbal recognition and other recognition just really seems to go in even even longer way than it ever has.

00;41;55;12 – 00;42;18;08
Speaker 2
Yeah. It’s funny that you said that. You say recognition, too, because there’s a bunch of studies out there that show that recognition is one of the most, what what’s the how to phrase it like when it comes to retention and drivers of retention, that employee recognition is like chief amongst them, like they want to be recognized for doing a great job.

00;42;18;08 – 00;42;28;23
Speaker 2
They want to, you know, publicly be recognized in front of their peers, in front of people they know. And it’s a huge driver for, for retention.

00;42;28;25 – 00;42;53;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And recognition in the right way is, is tricky sometimes. You know, some people like public recognition amongst their peers. You know, I work other people, you know, hate public recognition. Right. So I think part of that process of getting to know each of the employees on their team, you to your team members is to know, you know, how they how they accept feedback best and how they accept recognition best.

00;42;53;23 – 00;43;10;13
Speaker 1
And that that’s not that hard to do, you know, if you pay attention a little bit, but that’s, you know, that’s that’s really important. You’re kind of reflecting back, there’s a I was going to start up years ago, fuel cell technology startup, and there was an, a guy named Chris, and he was my boss for a minute.

00;43;10;13 – 00;43;26;00
Speaker 1
And, you know, I could care less personally about public recognition. Like, I don’t need Chris to, you know, stand me up in front of a meeting and say, hey, Bill did a great job, but you can call me into my kitchen to his office one on one. And he’s like, hey, I hear you’re into cycling. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, I like bicycles.

00;43;26;00 – 00;43;38;22
Speaker 1
I spend a lot of time cycling. He’s like. And he handed me a, you know, like a I forget what it was, but it was like 500 bucks, to a local bicycle shop was like, hey, here you go. You know, great job, you know, so talk about, you know, and this is a guy that came out of the Navy.

00;43;38;22 – 00;43;59;05
Speaker 1
He was a hard ass, you know, really, really, you know, clear communicator, straightforward, no BS. And to get called his office was something like that that I was like, wow, I must have done okay to get Chris to say I did okay. Never mind to throw me. So, so, you know, I think that’s critical is is how you do it and how you do it depends on the person who’s receiving it.

00;43;59;08 – 00;44;07;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, into your point that you just made sounds like not to overdo it, because if you’re always giving praise and recognition, the value of it is, a lot lower.

00;44;07;15 – 00;44;19;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well said. I mean, like, thank you. And I’m sorry you can use on an unlimited basis, but real recognition. Yeah. Agreed. Like it? You know, it needs to be earned. Otherwise it’s kind of turns into a social system pretty quick, you know? Yeah.

00;44;19;12 – 00;44;21;21
Speaker 2
Yeah. You’re just handing out attaboy for no reason.

00;44;21;29 – 00;44;23;12
Speaker 1
Right?

00;44;23;15 – 00;44;37;17
Speaker 2
So I know we’re getting short on time, but, you know, for the the owner that’s listening, they’ve got maybe eight employees. They have zero documented onboarding process is, what’s the first thing they should do tomorrow morning?

00;44;37;20 – 00;44;57;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, always a good question. And this one, I think this one, I think it’s a little has a kind of like an if then built into the answer. Right. So if they’re always going to hover around eight employees and, and if they’re usually getting their employees by through their network, you know, then you know what they could probably get away with as long as they’re compliant and they’re not at risk.

00;44;57;07 – 00;45;13;25
Speaker 1
You know, you know, if there’s compliance and risk things with hiring, that’s that’s a different story. Some people are more tolerance and others. But, you know, you don’t want to get in a pinch where you’re you’re expose yourself or your company to a lawsuit or something. Sounds crazy, but you’ve got eight people that you give jobs to and that’s how you pay.

00;45;13;27 – 00;45;33;22
Speaker 1
You know, the, that’s how you make the money to pay for what your family needs. One lawsuit puts an eight person business and their boss out of business, like, in a hurry. So. Yeah. So maybe the first question is asked, if am I really kind of. I’m doing things in a compliant way, and if I’m not confident, maybe fix that to eliminate that risk.

00;45;33;24 – 00;45;57;27
Speaker 1
That’s another thing. In the last decade or so, I feel like I’ve seen so much more of that, what I would call like, not frivolous, I guess, because there’s legal precedence there. But like these, like almost frivolous lawsuits on this little technicality that was almost, you know, almost BS. But they’re able to get that thing they go through, like, you know, any good person would have never done that.

00;45;57;27 – 00;46;18;15
Speaker 1
But that is the letter of the law kind of thing. And they ride that course into a cash payout. So maybe the first thing is, am I exposed to my process and should I, should I get it tied so I’m not exposed? If that’s not the case, and you have to ask yourself, are we going to stay at a people and kind of hire through network?

00;46;18;17 – 00;46;32;02
Speaker 1
And if that’s the case, you may not have to change anything. You know, if, if you’re the boss and you only got eight folks, you know, you usually try and limit you try and limit that kind of boss to subordinate to about a half dozen. Right. So you’ve got eight. You’re only a little over half dozen.

00;46;32;05 – 00;46;48;10
Speaker 1
You can probably kind of keep your thumb on everybody. You’re you’re kind of that one man show that’s that’s teaching. And, and you know, as you go. But if your goal is to double the size of that business and go, you know, up to 16 or triple the size of the business and get up to, you know, 24, a couple dozen.

00;46;48;12 – 00;47;04;07
Speaker 1
That’s where I think you need to start to consider, how you’re going to maintain the stand or the you’re able to maintain one boss, eight guys with one boss. 24 guys. Right. That’s very hard to maintain that same standard. So that’s where you got start to ask the question, how am I going to maintain the standard?

00;47;04;10 – 00;47;28;03
Speaker 1
And, you know, kind of do a quick gap analysis. What do I have or don’t I have. And then and then prioritize from there. You know, what to make standard, you know, whether to leverage industry group, whether to develop it on your own, you know, whether to lean on your guys to help develop it, whether to bring in someone like myself to help develop or, maybe if someone’s listening to this a year from now, 2027, maybe I, you know, you set up a video camera and it does it for you, I don’t know.

00;47;28;05 – 00;47;50;24
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Who knows that technology is changing so fast. Yeah. It’s wild. Absolutely wild. All right, one more. We got time for one more question, bill. If you were going to tell someone one thing about having a structured onboarding and training process, what would it be to.

00;47;50;26 – 00;48;26;20
Speaker 1
Make that process, make the success of that process dependent only on, demonstrated successes? So don’t make it based on time. Don’t miss it. Don’t make it based on taking a test and getting your grade. Based entirely on a set of milestones. But someone has to achieve those milestones. I think that’s the most impactful way that I’ve seen to to bring a new person into the fold, and get them aligned with the organization standards.

00;48;26;22 – 00;48;34;04
Speaker 2
Brilliant. There. You got any final thoughts or, questions? Well, just, to.

00;48;34;04 – 00;48;57;12
Speaker 3
Piggyback on what Bill said about, recognition, again, you know, not to bring it back to, to our organization, but we implemented something very simple that we do internally. So again, you know, putting somebody in front of everybody and embarrassing them. However, we whenever we do get a customer compliment or if somebody does get an out of boy from the field, we do recognize that person.

00;48;57;14 – 00;49;11;00
Speaker 3
And we actually track that in the background, and once they get a certain number of those, they get a small gift from the company, just to reward those efforts. It’s awesome. It’s done. It’s done wonders.

00;49;11;02 – 00;49;16;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Recognition works. I like there’s real, real science and data behind that.

00;49;16;08 – 00;49;38;10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I like that system to Derek where it’s customer driven. I think that’s that’s a whole nother discussion. But how how do you make your business truly like customer centric. You know. And that’s that’s one of the ways you do it, is that if you will the NPS score, the Net Promoter score. I don’t know if that’s new to the audience or not, but Net Promoter Score essentially is asking your customer, would you refer us or not?

00;49;38;17 – 00;49;53;19
Speaker 1
And if they refer you, that’s a thumbs up, Neil Green. If they wouldn’t refer you, that’s a thumbs down, that’s red. And I think if they’re given out of choice to your team, it’s safe to say they would refer your team.

00;49;53;22 – 00;49;57;07
Speaker 3
Well, yeah, 100%.

00;49;57;10 – 00;50;06;03
Speaker 2
Guys, thanks so much, Bill. Appreciate jumping on today, man. As always. You know, it’s, always enlightening to have you on my friend.

00;50;06;05 – 00;50;19;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. The people things. Interesting one. Right. That’s it’s tricky in the growth phase to get the people right. So as much as this probably isn’t as exciting to hear about as some of the other things we talk about, it’s important. So yeah, thanks for the opportunity to talk about it.

00;50;19;27 – 00;50;42;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. Of course. And thanks everybody for listening. Of course you can find this at Blue Collar startup.io. We are also on Rumble, Apple, Spotify and YouTube of course. Please make sure you guys jump on over to YouTube as well. I mean, we’re trying to put some, specialized content over there. But that’s one of the big, drivers right now for getting our metrics up is YouTube.

00;50;42;03 – 00;50;51;07
Speaker 2
So like, subscribe, leave us a review. We love it. And, and we love you, everybody. So thanks for listening. And, you’ll hear from us next week.

00;50;51;09 – 00;51;19;09
Speaker 1
And that wraps up another episode of Blue Collar Startup. A big thank you to our sponsors, Five Towers Media, Daigle Cleaning Systems, Daigle Fire Solutions, The Michaels Group, Martin Electric, MLB construction, Pinocchio Construction People, and Catamount Consulting for making this podcast possible. And thank you for tuning in. If you learned something or felt inspired. Connect with us on our website at Blue Collar Startup Bio or email us at hardhat Dot CSU at gmail.com.

00;51;19;09 – 00;51;32;06
Speaker 1
We’d love to hear your questions and topic ideas. Help us spread the word by sharing the show and following us on social media for updates. Until next time, keep on building. Keep on dreaming and keep hustling like your future depends on it.

00;51;32;09 – 00;51;41;12
Unknown
Oh, hey. Oh!

00;51;41;14 – 00;51;42;20
Unknown
Oh!